Anderson - More Questions Than Answers

[Chris]

Chris,
If indeed Aaron was in and out of an asylum then its strange Jacob Cohen didnt reveal that because he seemed ready to talk about Aaron"s dirty habits---eating out of gutters ,being very lazy.The family were questioned and replied that he had been acting strangely ,so to speak ,- 6 years insane.Why wouldnt they have said "and we did what we could,we sent him to a private asylum but now we are appealing to you to help us" etc

Indeed, in the "Statement of Particulars" when Aaron was certified, there is a section headed "When and where previously under care and treatment as a lunatic, idiot, or person of unsound mind", which contains only "Mile End Old Town Workhouse July 1890". So I think it's only an outside possibility that Aaron had been treated elsewhere previously. On the other hand Robert's suggestion could explain why the family wouldn't want to volunteer information about previous private treatment.

[Robert]

Jeff, can you tell me if a violent phase could be followed by a gentle decline, or would it have to be followed by a sudden collapse?

[Robert]

Hi Nats

We have the sister knife attack (hearsay) and the chair, so not much.

It could be some sort of post-manic burnout, but the dog muzzle thing seems to argue against that.

Still, I've a soft spot for Aaron and would like to hear more about him, whether or not he was the Ripper.

[Jeff Leahy]

schizophrenia

Does anyone know if the myth that self-abuse leads to insanity was held by Jews as well as the rest of the population? I'm wondering if there was any self-abuse, or whether the family simply invented this as preferable to admitting the presence of, as it were, "bad genes" - I believe this sort of trait is a handicap in the Jewish marriage stakes, and might have reflected badly on the next generation's prospects.

I'm not cretain about this Robert. But certainly the issue of self abuse, and indeed sex drive and schizophrenia has been a subject that has tasked me for some time. Certainly some suffers from the illness seem to experience heightened sex drive but this is not the norm. We would typically expect lessened interest in sex.

Again Norma directs us to the known records of Aaron Kosminski, which is all well and good. However they tell us nothing, without knowning what happen to his mental state at the most important time of the illness, its on set.

We just do not know Aarons mental condition in the autumn of 1888.

However we can not dismiss the possibilty. Given what is know about this illness by modern professionals, that Aaron could have been very differant to his asylum records, at this stage in the development of Schizophrenia.

I base this accessment on information given to me by people who work in and have the responcibility for sectioning people suffering from this illness today.

I'm not saying Aaron's condition proves he was JtR. I'm saying given what is known about the illness today..IT REMAINS A POSSIBILITY.

and I caveat that statement by adding schizophrenics are NOT dangerous, are largely a danger to themselves and invariably in cases where schizophrenics have become dangerous, other external influences have been a contributing factor.

Pirate

[Natalie Severn]

Good point Robert.But even if they had and Aaron had been for a few stays in a private asylum,his records at Colney Hatch and Leavesdon point to someone who was pretty harmless and I doubt the records would have referred to Aaron as being "not dangerous",if in fact he was Jack the Ripper.

[Robert]

Nats, just read your previous post. I'm wondering whether Aaron could have got into a public asylum if he'd once been in a private one, without the family having to take a means test. I don't know enough about the asylum system, I'm afraid. I remember Andrew Roberts telling me that the Cutbush family wouldn't have been charged for Broadmoor, but I don't know if this principle held across the board.

[Robert]

Does anyone know if the myth that self-abuse leads to insanity was held by Jews as well as the rest of the population? I'm wondering if there was any self-abuse, or whether the family simply invented this as preferable to admitting the presence of, as it were, "bad genes" - I believe this sort of trait is a handicap in the Jewish marriage stakes, and might have reflected badly on the next generation's prospects.

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
If indeed Aaron was in and out of an asylum then its strange Jacob Cohen didnt reveal that because he seemed ready to talk about Aaron"s dirty habits---eating out of gutters ,being very lazy.The family were questioned and replied that he had been acting strangely ,so to speak ,- 6 years insane.Why wouldnt they have said "and we did what we could,we sent him to a private asylum but now we are appealing to you to help us" etc

[Natalie Severn]

Rob,
What on earth has it to do with anything that the hospital records are brief? Probably Aaron just jogged along,a sad figure with a deteriorating mental health problem.There probably wasnt much the doctors could do about it---so what would there have been to record over the years?
What I was most concerned with was what those hospital records said about him on entry ie in 1891 ...and what they said was that he was NOT dangerous.That, I put to you, would not have been said by any doctor had Aaron been Jack the Ripper.Dont forget they had a duty of care to their staff and to other patients in their care,Had he been a dangerous man, we would, I believe,, have had some record of that ,such as him having had to be restrained-put in a padded cell,put into a straight jacket.But we dont have any hint whatsoever that that was ever necessary either at the beginning or the end of his long incarceration-of almost 30 years.
Moreover there are fairly specific notes at the beginning -on his admission.They refer to what Jacob Cohen has said about his eating ,drinking and work situation.
There is a clear and succinct observational note which follows the Male Patients Day book notes where he is referred to as NOT DANGEROUS:

"On admission patient is extremely deluded.As mentioned in the certificate he believes that all his actions are dominated by an "instinct".This is probably an aural hallucination.Answers questions fairly but is inclined to be reticent and morose.Health fair."

The above comments appear to be made by someone with a medical understanding of mental illness-probably one of his doctors.There is, again,nothing that hints of a "homicidal maniac" such as for example how Macnaghten referred to Kosminski nor does he fit Anderson"s comments about this low class Jew- who he called a " loathsome creature" and worse and ofcourse who he appears to have decided was Jack the Ripper.



The hospital records at no point from 1891 until 1919 give the slightest hint that Aaron Kosminski was anything other than a harmless man who suffered from episodes of hallucinations and dementia.

[Chris]

(I spent a long time looking at admissions around March 1889, noting, like Mark King later, the possibility of Hyam Hyams. As for my general asylum search, I looked at all Colney Hatch inmates from 1888 to 1898 ultimately and made notes on all Jewish patients admitted between 1888 and 1890, and all Jewish patients in the other London asylums between 1888 and 1890. These included their places of residence and age, occupation, and any other useful details. What I should have written, of course, is that Cohen was the only Jewish patient from Whitechapel to die prematurely between 1888 and 1895. I can’t actually remember whether any of the old men who died at a natural age were from Whitechapel, and haven’t time to dig out my notes and see).

Thank you for clarifying that.

But Chris’s observation certainly leaves those who want Kosminsky to be the suspect and Swansons’ notes to describe one set of events all occurring in or around 1891 with new problems, though there may well be ways to hypothetize around them. I look forward to discussing this with Paul Begg

Although, for the reasons I've already mentioned, I don't find the Cohen/Kozminski confusion theory at all plausible, it might perhaps be that some of the problems with the statements made about Kozminski by Swanson and Macnaghten could be explained if he was investigated primarily by the City CID, with minimal involvement by the Met at the time. That might be one way of explaining Macnaghten's apparent error over the date of Aaron Kozminski's committal.

It might also be that the "identification" really did take place before Macnaghten joined the force - perhaps even in March 1889. That would mean Swanson was mistaken in thinking that Aaron Kozminski was committed soon after the "identification", as well as about the date of his death. If so, and if Macnaghten thought the same, that might also explain the apparent error.

(Incidentally, I wonder whether it's significant that Macnaghten removed "and I believe still is [detailed in an asylum]" between the Aberconway draft and the final version. Was that because when he came to check on it he was told that Kozminski was dead - as Swanson (perhaps) believed by the following year - or at least was unable to find any information to confirm he was still alive?)

Pirate – I only missed Kosminsky’s infirmary entry. He definitely did not enter any asylum before 1891.

It certainly appears he didn't. But if I understand correctly, there is one possibility - that he could have entered a private asylum as a voluntary patient. I believe this wouldn't have been noted in any of the records that have been searched.

It may seem unlikely, and it seems that Aaron's brother Woolf and brother-in-law Morris would have lacked the means to send him to such a place at that time. But his brother Isaac would, apparently, have had the means to do so, if he'd wanted to.

If - and it's still a big if - the accounts of City CID surveillance attributed to Sagar and Cox refer to Aaron Kozminski, then there are perhaps some interesting indications there:
(1) Sagar: "after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum."
(2) Cox: "from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."
Cox's account in particular seems to suggest the suspect was in and out of an asylum, rather than simply being committed and staying there.

[robhouse]

Cap'n Jack,

No, I dont believe that. And I dont know what you are talking about.

[robhouse]

"I am looking at what Aaron"s doctors actually recorded about him. The FACTS recorded about Aaron by those who worked closely with him over 30 years"

The facts recorded about Aaron come from his 2 admissions to Mile End, his admissions to Colney Hatch and Leavesden Asylums, and accompanying documentation.

Then there are 9 brief entries about Aaron at Colney Hatch from Feb 1891 to April 19 1894. In one of these he is said to be violent. As late as 1893 he "Answers questions concerning himself."

Then there are no files (that I have seen) regarding Aaron's physical or mental condition from Aaron's admission at Leavesden until 1910. In other words, a 16 year gap in his records. He died in 1919.

Then the files resume toward the end of Aaron's life, by which time he "cannot answer questions of a simple nature." (1910) "No replies can be got by questions." (1911) "No sensible reply can be got by questions." (1913) etc.

Thus we have in total 9 years of entries during which Aaron has degenerated mentally and mumbles, cannot answer questions, incoherent etc. Plus we have 9 entries over a period of just over 3 years. And then the documentation of his admissions, and his insanity certification.

So I am not sure how that adds up to 30 years of facts recorded by doctors.

RH

[Cap'n Jack]

So, I assume, Rob that you, and others, do believe that low-class Polish Jews were murdering children and women in 1888 to supply grease for the synagogue candles; and that Robert Anderson's thoughts on the subject were nothing to do with a government inspired attempt to keep those same bestial Jews out of England?

[robhouse]

Natalie,

That is all fine and good, but like I said - focus on one thing at a time. I was ONLY saying that Anderson's 1892 statement ("[the murders] ... were those of a maniac reveling in blood") is consistent with what Anderson later stated he believed, and the timeline of when he probably came to this conclusion.

Whether or not Anderson was wrong in his belief is a DIFFERENT discussion, as is whether or not Aaron was violent.

RH

[Natalie Severn]

Look Pirate, I am looking at what Aaron"s doctors actually recorded about him.
The FACTS recorded about Aaron by those who worked closely with him over 30 years--------not what we would possibly prefer them to have recorded.