Home office report

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,
No, the police didnt know what he looked like at the time either,

Phil

They had a pretty good idea what AK looked like...he was positively identified remember...

And we have a number of clear witness identifications, the best being Schwartz and Lawende's

Pirate

PS and my other joke went over your head, are you an aeroplane?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

Your personal insults didnt work either. Making that documentary and being questioned as biased doesn't help your credibility either. I am not trying to tell the world who JTR was. You are... the MM is full of holes, as COUNTLESS questions regarding it on these boards show. It isn't just me. Live with it.

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

On that basis, and on what we have, NOBODY can claim that JTR was a single lone killing madman.

Phil

I fail to understand how that statement, given 127 suspects makes any sense what so ever?

What does the MM, the Swanson Marginalia have to do with Jack the Ripper being a lone single killing madman....diddly squat

You are having a rough time today Phil

Pirate

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

No, you havent rattled my cage old boy.. sorry.. but thanks for the young man compliment.

No, the police didnt know what he looked like at the time either, given the varying descriptions. So dont start me off about witnesses being reliable and one witness knowing and the other being mistaken. The fact is all of those witness statements are unreliable.
With what we have to go on Jeff, the whole thing is circumstantial and the merry go round of suspects from the MM is more like an ever screened episode of Magic Roundabout.

Doogle saw Mr. Rusty do it.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

I don't follow that at all. How could the absence of a name from Special Branch records demonstrate a deficiency in Macnaghten's knowledge?

In any case, my feeling is that the only Ripper suspects who would have been mentioned in Special Branch records are the ones in whom SB was also interested for other reasons, such as William Magrath, as a "suspicious Irishman." A few of the known suspects might come into that category, but most of them wouldn't.

Hello Chris,

The MM is a supposed to be the be all and end all of a round up of the top known suspects at the time. Ostrog doesnt even apply.. so thats the first hole. Mac didn't even know the profession, amongst other things of Druitt, and this has been explained away as a deliberate mistake by some, and Kosminski.. well, he wasn't even known to be a violent man at the time of the murders. So how he can suddenly be Jack the Ripper amazes me, dog-walker to insane multi-murdering killer.. quite a step without proof. Which he doesn't supply..again.

As regards the other question. If the MM IS the be all and end all, then Mac MUST have known whom Special were after. If none of these three TOP suspects he mentions are there..then Special can't have been too impressed with them, can they? That goes for others, especially Tumbelty, the Irish American with supposed Fenian activity.

The simple fact is that Special Branch were involved in the WM hunt. That wouldn't be needed unless the suspicions came under their role in police work. They work with National Security, in the main. It would be needed if Ostrog WAS involved.. but he wasn't.. he was in France. So MM's mention of this man is irrelevant to the hunt for the WM, which questions just what he based his naming of this man upon. Because it wasn't fact, thats for certain. His "facts" about Druitt are wrong too.

We can discuss and argue this until the cows come home. The point is, that there are serious questions surrounding the MM, the SM and Anderson's unqualified and unnamed speculation. There are serious questions as to why all the top dogs didn't agree or seem to agree with eachother, and even the words of Inspector Reid tells us all we need to know...
Not a piffle of evidence against any man, and he ought to know...

On that basis, and on what we have, NOBODY can claim that JTR was a single lone killing madman. No person can be laballed as JTR based on what we have either. It's a lovely story that doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of proof. And it's basis has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Do you know what he may have looked like Phil???

Pirate

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

I don't trade with dealers in fiction, sorry. Kosminski wasn't seen at at least 4 of the C5 locations. So come up with an answer to that and I'll trade. He wasn't Jack the Riopper.. more like Jack the Ripp-off.

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

You will excuse me if I, in a light hearted vein and without malice, pull apart your words. There are sadly great holes in the presumption that we can "take it from you" that all the murders are from the hand of a single lone killer.

The gospel according to Jeff is based on the veracity of three things. One, the MM. Two, the SM. Three, SRA's pearls of wisdom.

Dont talk dog pooh Phil. The idea that Jack was a lone serial killer sits perfectly well without these three sources, even Trevor would probably support that notion.AK is hardly the only 'psychotic' on the suspect list.

Its this new nitwit idea that the murders were part of a fenian plot that I'm critisising here.

No.1 is riddled with holes, falsities and fantasy. No. 2 is riddled with problems far and away based on the veracity of No.3 and No. 3 is at best a pile of conjecture without an iota of proof. l

At least its a theory supported by evidence, Swansons evidence.

What do you have?

The gospel therefore is based on a weak house of cards put together to fit a theory that doesn't stand up without all three being completely true. And the simple words that pull the house down? Ostrog, the Russian named in the MM was in France, Druitt, named in the MM was wrongly listed as a doctor, amongst other things, and Kosminski was in 1888 nothing more than a dog walker without a lead to go on.

But the only house of cards that bears any real scrutany Phil.

You have also stated on jtrforums that you think that Stride is a Kosminski job (together with Coles..which makes it very hard to believe the gospel because I believe he was indulging in a spot of locked away r and r at the time), and there is not an iota of proof Kosminski was ever violent in the cut-throat mad lone killer fashion you have listed with all the other killers you named.

Dont quote me out of context Phil...I was clearly joshing at your expense..But the idea that kosminski might have killed stride and not been JtR is someone elses theory, not mine.....this conversation went over your head (as usual). Think about who thinks Stride might not have been a ripper victim?

Now that leaves 4 of the C5 unaccounted for. Which also means your statement a few posts ago that all of the murders were done by a lone killer and we should take it from you a little confusing.

Dont quote me out of context. Clearly I believe in a lone serial killer. It being AK is more problematic..lots of possibilities..he remains the top suspect.

Then we have the odd similarities that make dear old "Jack" caught and not caught according to various policemen on the job at the time, Sadler who was considered to be JTR by the police yet can't have been if MM, SM and SRA are correct. Grainger who was also considered to be JTR but can't be if the MM, SM and SRA are correct. Chapman likewise. Tumblety likewise. Anyone else likewise. All of whom were in the frame of the police apparently at the time. I won't even mention Le Grande but another "suspect" there that according to some is confused with Ostrog in the MM, the possibility of Isenschmidt having been a possibility in the Chapman murder, ruled out only because he was incarcerated when C3 and C4 happened (that doesn't mean he didnt kill Chapman) and of course the final little nail in the coffin.. that should the Special Branch ledgers become available, and there is no mention of Kosminsky, Druitt, Ostrog, Tumblety, Chapman, Grainger, Sadler, Bury, Kelly, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all infact... aren't under the light of Special Branch, then the dear old MM takes rather a tumble because you would have thought that Mac knew all about every suspect when he wrote his little piece of diatribe.

There is nothing confusing Phil, just people with muddled minds.

And if the MM is shown to be rubbish.. then the three card trick that relies on each part to keep the mystery alive disappears with a wave of the wand. Abracadabra!

Yes 'IF' but it hasnt been has it? So until you manage it, it will remain the most important document in the case.

So do Jeff, do please continue to entertain us with your gospel. I enjoy reading it. It's fun. It makes me smile. I feel relaxed knowing that the trio of Mr. Punch, Judy and the Policeman is a lovely kiddies story that is based on no proof whatsoever, and we can all rest our heads happily on the nice soft comfy pillow and dream on.

Looks like your bars have been rattled...run out of reasonable arguement

As Mr. Punch says.. "That's the way to do it!" Trouble is, only very small children believe Mr. Punch exists in real life. Something tells me that Mr. Punch and his actions, a.k.a. Jack the Ripper....is a glove puppet. And the policeman who arrested him... is a glove puppet too.

Still, makes a nice story doesn't it. Oh well, Brighton beach next year.. same time, same channel, same story. All-together now..."Oh no he didn't!" "oh yes he did!"

best wishes Phil

I think you have the wrong Seaside home...your obviously in need of a break

Your going to have to do better to trade with me young man

Pirate

[Chris]

... should the Special Branch ledgers become available, and there is no mention of Kosminsky, Druitt, Ostrog, Tumblety, Chapman, Grainger, Sadler, Bury, Kelly, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all infact... aren't under the light of Special Branch, then the dear old MM takes rather a tumble because you would have thought that Mac knew all about every suspect when he wrote his little piece of diatribe.

I don't follow that at all. How could the absence of a name from Special Branch records demonstrate a deficiency in Macnaghten's knowledge?

In any case, my feeling is that the only Ripper suspects who would have been mentioned in Special Branch records are the ones in whom SB was also interested for other reasons, such as William Magrath, as a "suspicious Irishman." A few of the known suspects might come into that category, but most of them wouldn't.

[curious4]

Mr (not Dr - he was high enough up the professional ladder to be regarded as a "gentleman" - if I remember rightly they paid a guinea a year for the privilege ) Bondīs report makes interesting reading, as does the letter asking him to give his opinion on the murders. He studied the all the cases very carefully and came to the conclusion that all five murders were by the same hand. He was the acknowledged expert and foremost in his field at the time apparently. No-one at the time was interested in adding to the number of murders by JTR - in fact they had a lot to lose by not solving so many murders by the same hand - if anyone in the police had had the slightest chance of suggesting that not all the women died by the same hand I think they would have taken it and thus diminished the panic somewhat.

Regards,
C4

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

You will excuse me if I, in a light hearted vein and without malice, pull apart your words. There are sadly great holes in the presumption that we can "take it from you" that all the murders are from the hand of a single lone killer.

The gospel according to Jeff is based on the veracity of three things. One, the MM. Two, the SM. Three, SRA's pearls of wisdom.

No.1 is riddled with holes, falsities and fantasy. No. 2 is riddled with problems far and away based on the veracity of No.3 and No. 3 is at best a pile of conjecture without an iota of proof.

The gospel therefore is based on a weak house of cards put together to fit a theory that doesn't stand up without all three being completely true. And the simple words that pull the house down? Ostrog, the Russian named in the MM was in France, Druitt, named in the MM was wrongly listed as a doctor, amongst other things, and Kosminski was in 1888 nothing more than a dog walker without a lead to go on.

You have also stated on jtrforums that you think that Stride is a Kosminski job (together with Coles..which makes it very hard to believe the gospel because I believe he was indulging in a spot of locked away r and r at the time), and there is not an iota of proof Kosminski was ever violent in the cut-throat mad lone killer fashion you have listed with all the other killers you named.

Now that leaves 4 of the C5 unaccounted for. Which also means your statement a few posts ago that all of the murders were done by a lone killer and we should take it from you a little confusing.

Then we have the odd similarities that make dear old "Jack" caught and not caught according to various policemen on the job at the time, Sadler who was considered to be JTR by the police yet can't have been if MM, SM and SRA are correct. Grainger who was also considered to be JTR but can't be if the MM, SM and SRA are correct. Chapman likewise. Tumblety likewise. Anyone else likewise. All of whom were in the frame of the police apparently at the time. I won't even mention Le Grande but another "suspect" there that according to some is confused with Ostrog in the MM, the possibility of Isenschmidt having been a possibility in the Chapman murder, ruled out only because he was incarcerated when C3 and C4 happened (that doesn't mean he didnt kill Chapman) and of course the final little nail in the coffin.. that should the Special Branch ledgers become available, and there is no mention of Kosminsky, Druitt, Ostrog, Tumblety, Chapman, Grainger, Sadler, Bury, Kelly, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all infact... aren't under the light of Special Branch, then the dear old MM takes rather a tumble because you would have thought that Mac knew all about every suspect when he wrote his little piece of diatribe.

And if the MM is shown to be rubbish.. then the three card trick that relies on each part to keep the mystery alive disappears with a wave of the wand. Abracadabra!

So do Jeff, do please continue to entertain us with your gospel. I enjoy reading it. It's fun. It makes me smile. I feel relaxed knowing that the trio of Mr. Punch, his stick and the Policeman is a lovely kiddies story that is based on no proof whatsoever, and we can all rest our heads happily on the nice soft comfy pillow and dream on.

As Mr. Punch says.. "That's the way to do it!" Trouble is, only very small children believe Mr. Punch exists in real life. Something tells me that Mr. Punch and his actions, a.k.a. Jack the Ripper....is a glove puppet. And the policeman who arrested him... is a glove puppet too.

Still, makes a nice story doesn't it. Oh well, Brighton beach next year.. same time, same channel, same story. All-together now..."Oh no he didn't!" "oh yes he did!"

best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

At least we are back on solid Ripper ground,,,

Is there such a thing?

[Jeff Leahy]

Its seems a reasonable acessment Phil...

Alice McKenzie is interesting, but we have a comparatively long time gap (not that we would thinks so today) and the killers tastes appear similar to Jacks.

I dont think Smith and Tabram were killed by the same people/person

I think Tabram a possible for Jack...mainly because of time and location.

I think we'd agree on Nichols chapman Eddows...

Kelly I think was a Jack victim, Age dosnt bother me, I dont think it bothered Jack, he took what he could get, opportunity. The victims sellected the murder location, so Kelly took him inside.

The attack to the abdoman, removal of the face and organs. This was more than your average domestic.

I agree the info on Flemming is interesting, theres alway's something that is in this case...but I dont think poor old Joe had anything to do with it..

At least we are back on solid Ripper ground

Pirate

[Phil H]

What about Alice McKenzie? There were what appeared to be the start of abdominal mutilations in that case - perhaps prevented by her relatively tight clothing.

On the other hand maybe JtR was disturbed (as with Nichols) or enfeebled (hence the "gap")?

With Kelly - I am concerned by the different location, the age of the victim, the extent of the mutilations (more I'd suggest than simply a product of time and opportunity) and the fact that we cannot be sure what killed her. I also think that the possibility of a "crime of passion" - that is a murder by someone who knew the victim closely and had emotional reasons for the dismemberment - should not be ruled out, and even allowing for MJK's questionable story, we have candidates for thet - the Barnett brothers, Fleming etc.

I also believe that MJK may have been made to look like a "Ripper" job but was not.

Smith and Tabram, I think may have been killed by the same group of men, but NOT by "Jack" unless he was a member of the "trio"(?).

On the other hand, I would not discount attacks earlier than Buck's Row as the work of the man who would become "Jack".

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

[B]

Pirate - you seem to draw your conclusions in the main from the auropsy/medical papers. If so, perhaps you could inform us by an equally thorough dissection of the medical evidence on the Torso killings, your views on how those relate to the specifically Whitechapel/Spitalfields murders - was the Pinchen St victim a Ripper victim, in your view?

Phil

The torso murders are not my area. Mei Trow might be a good contact?

But the mind set of such killings are very different. The killer has taken time to conceal and dispose the bodies....I once raised the idea that Chapman might be a better psychological profile for these killings than JtR.

Jacks MO is completely different, so no I dont think they were the work of Jack...Jack had very specific tastes.

With regards to multiple serial killers, there is some evidence that certain social condition can give rise to more than one. It happened in Mexico City back in the 1970's. However serial killers are very rare, to my knowledge there are no specific books relating to this...could ask Stan Reid?

But we're back to probability, the ripper murders happened in a very short space of time, on any serial killer MO, unusual. Its why they took off so quickly after Nichols (they already had Smith and Tabram murdered within days) But the cutting of the throats, in near location, the attacks to the abdoman...everything points to this being the same person, the odds are simply to steep to consider they were not...

And sometimes the most obvious conclusion is the most logical.

I understand peoples reluctance to include Smith and Tabram even Stride.

But it really is stretching the imagination to suggest that Nichols , Chapman Eddows and Kelly weren't committed by the same killer.

Pirate