Home office report

[Jeff Leahy]

Thats OK Glyn

Patricia Cornwall also expressed a large number of potencial JtR victims and kills...

What I'm waiting for from Lynn is something I can take past my 'profile experts' as possible JtR MO matches....

Just because I've not come across them doesnt mean, as Lynn points out, they dont exist........

Ada Wilson and Annie Milwood are interesting points in hand..

Pirate

[glyn]

Just my little joke .

[Jeff Leahy]

sounds like you have a possible MO match for the torso murders..

But not Jack the Ripper

Pirate

[glyn]

We know from the autopsie report that MJK was
What i'm asking is do you have examples of religious or political fanatics in particular the Fenians or IRA, ever carrying out this kind to post murder mutilation on a corpse?

And if so where?

Pirate

the country. This year, at least 25 people with albinism have been killed, mostly in the Lake Victoria Zone, especially the Mwanza, Shinyanga
The bodies are left limbless and sometimes with a huge hole in the neck, from where blood would have been drained. Families not only grieve because of the loss of their loved ones but are also shocked at the state in which the bodies are left by these murderers.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. It won't do to eliminate. There are more things in heaven and earth. . . .

So you want a list of Clan-na-Gael (the Fenians had their heyday in the 1860's; the IRA were a 20th c organisation) members who mutilated women? Very well. The time has come for some horse trading. I'll post that list right next to your list of 1880's lust murderers who mutilated women to satisfy themselves.

Deal?

Cheers.
LC

Sounds good to me. Hopefully a list of injuries rather than names.

Pirate

[lynn cates]

I'll show you mine if, . . .

Hello Jeff. It won't do to eliminate. There are more things in heaven and earth. . . .

So you want a list of Clan-na-Gael (the Fenians had their heyday in the 1860's; the IRA were a 20th c organisation) members who mutilated women? Very well. The time has come for some horse trading. I'll post that list right next to your list of 1880's lust murderers who mutilated women to satisfy themselves.

Deal?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff.

"this is not a case of the [S]panish [I]nqusition."

Well, I didn't expect them anyway. After all, their chief element was surprise. (Although there are rumours that they also used fear, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.)

"This was about an individual gaining personal 'pleasure' or 'need' from the process of dismembering a corp[se]."

How do we know this?

Cheers.
LC

By a simple process of eliminating any other possibilities like he was hungry or in need of redecorating his bathroom or the possibility he had a hungry Tiger that only ate human hearts...

If he was in the process of collecting organ specimin's he did a very poor job indeed...

If it was left as a warning there are no other similar examples..

Now answer the question and stop wriggling...

Please provide other examples of Fenian or IRA activists leaving desmembered corpes around London, or anywhere for that matter.

Pirate

[lynn cates]

nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition

Hello Jeff.

"this is not a case of the [S]panish [I]nqusition."

Well, I didn't expect them anyway. After all, their chief element was surprise. (Although there are rumours that they also used fear, ruthless efficiency, and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.)

"This was about an individual gaining personal 'pleasure' or 'need' from the process of dismembering a corp[se]."

How do we know this?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. I don't think the Mafia were involved.

Sane? A person driven by fury is, at least temporarily, not sane.

Cheers.
LC

We know from the autopsie report that MJK was killed (its impossible to know exactly how) and that these mutilation were carried out after she was dead.

So this is not a case of the spanish inquesition extracting a confession or a roman emporer seeking public spectical.

This was about an individual gaining personal 'pleasure' or 'need' from the process of dismembering a corpes.

In his recent book Rob House brings to the table examples of other serial killers, I beleive he refers to them as Lust killers, who have committed crimes or 'behaviours ' similar to this..

What i'm asking is do you have examples of religious or political fanatics in particular the Fenians or IRA, ever carrying out this kind to post murder mutilation on a corpse?

And if so where?

Pirate

[lynn cates]

sanity

Hello Jeff. I don't think the Mafia were involved.

Sane? A person driven by fury is, at least temporarily, not sane.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Lynn I'm fairly familiar with both, however apart from the odd Daren Brown novel, I cant think of a single example of a human being, being gutted by a sane human being, as an act of Religious or Political revenge?

Perhaps you would like to share similar photographs from these maniacs over the last 150 years...?

or identical maffia hits?

While there might be some fairly shocking war images available, being blown to pieces on a battle field is hardly the same act as mutilating a corpse with a 6 to 8 inch blade.

Pirate

[lynn cates]

fanatical fury

Hello Jeff. Don't think so. We see the same photograph--but perhaps through different eyes.

Remember why we were advised as youths never to discuss religion or politics? Recall the religious and political fury that drove the execution of the Anarchists in Xerez in Spain? Remember the special devices they jury rigged just for the occasion? A chair was made where the victim was seated and strapped down. A hole was bored on either side of the neck and a strap was passed through the holes. On the back side, the straps were attached to a wheel. By turning the wheel, the unlucky victim was slowly (oh, very slowly) strangled to death.

Thinking historically, I daresay you will find many cruelties perpetrated from this same motivation.

(Disclaimer: the above observations have nothing to do with humankind's need for religion or politics. It is intended merely to illustrate what can drive one to excess.)

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

I think were looking at a different picture

Pirate

[lynn cates]

religion and politics

Hello Jeff.

"Personally I always start with the picture of Mary Kelly on her bed and ask the question What sort of human being could do that?"

Now you're talking. Until the time of the WCM, the most likely answer seems a religious or political zealot seeking revenge. I am thinking of the Phoenix Park murders and the "Invincible" wing of the Clan-na-Gael.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

To Pirate

Some people can't take 'yes' for an answer, as I mentioned Paul Begg in exactly the capacity you scold me for not doing?!

Plus historians take a dim view of the kind of trendy forensic hocus pocus your're hustling, especially medical diagnoses of people this long gone -- leaving behind only scanty medical records from another era.

Or is it that you can't take it, pal. That historical arguments might be just as legit about other suspects, and that is the real moment of horror for you?

The horror of uncertainty, of contingeny, of the provisional opinion -- the regular travelling companions of the historian.

Well No, and bizarrely I'm sure Trevor will agree with me here.

I think its perfectly legitamate to consult modern experts in forensics, psychology, profiling, and ask what they make of surviving autopsy reports.

My experience is that they are usually very cautious in how they do so and caveate their responce.

But Browns medical analysis tells us more about Jack the Ripper than the MacNaughten Memoranda ever will...

Its perfectly legitamate to look at someones potencial psychological profile and ask could he have commited these crimes?

Personally I always start with the picture of Mary Kelly on her bed and ask the question What sort of human being could do that?

Not sit in Begg's libruary and ask what the sources tell us?

Thats not to say that there isnt a place for that.

I'm simply arguing a holoistic approach to the case.

Pirate