Home office report

[Phil H]

Me: Scepticism about conventional wisdoms is always healthy.

Pirate: Not when it flies in the face of the facts, it simply disappears up its own...

But the facts are simply what you see them to be - how YOU have fitted the mosaic together. Your reconstruction of history will always say more about you, than it does about the past. Same for mine...

Historical reconstruction is ALWAYS subjective, never objective. There may be seeming "facts" (historical references, documents, objects), but it is our interpretation of those, how we see their context etc that matters.

One of the problem about assessing men like Anderson and Melville Macnaghten is that our perception of such figures, in todays's less deferential age, in a time that has vastly different values, has altered. We now assess them from a position that has little understanding of theirs (not least of Anderson's Christianity) and is indeed cynical and questioning about Victorian values generally.

That is why I find the deconstruction of the Ripper case so fascinating. When The Killer Who Never Was" came out some years ago, I was initially socked. But as the concept sunk in it made me question evertything and look at each murder from a fresh perspective. I realised how straight-jacketed we had become by the imposed views of Macnaghten (5 victims etc) and that there were other ways of viewing and assessing each of these terrible crimes.

Hence I have concluded that there is rather less likelihood than is usually assumed, that Stride and Kelly were murdered by the same hand as Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes. But it brought McKenzie into the frame for me.

Currently, I am striving to integrate the Torso killings into the wider picture - something that the conventional Ripper book signally fails to do. To me there was clearly more than one murderer (serial killer?) around in London in 1888 (and perhaps more than two) so it is not unreasonable to assume a different hand for at least some of the canonical five and to introduce new members of that sorority.

Pirate - you seem to draw your conclusions in the main from the auropsy/medical papers. If so, perhaps you could inform us by an equally thorough dissection of the medical evidence on the Torso killings, your views on how those relate to the specifically Whitechapel/Spitalfields murders - was the Pinchen St victim a Ripper victim, in your view?

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

And quite rightly too. Scepticism about conventional wisdoms is always healthy.

Not when it flies in the face of the facts, it simply disappears up its own...

I've never done that, Pirate. But I do frequently argue that you are a figment of my imagination....

Phil

Ah! Existencial philosophy, a George Berkeley man....another mad Irishman

[Phil H]

Yes I'm aware that there are a large number of posters who seem to discount that Nichols, Chapman, Eddows and MJK were perpetrated by the same hand.

And quite rightly too. Scepticism about conventional wisdoms is always healthy.

But then their are those that agrue the moon is made of cheese and the earth is flat.

I've never done that, Pirate. But I do frequently argue that you are a figment of my imagination....

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

Pirate,

I think you are essentially correct about serial killers in general.

On the other hand, I accept the Cullen thesis that Druitt could have killed prostitutes anywhere in London, and therefore he did have a political agenda in constantly returning to impoverished East End -- specifically the 'evil quarter mile' designated the abyss-within-the-abyss by social reformers.

Yeah I dont but it because prostitution was common across London. Druits arrival point was Cannon street and there were safer easier killing feilds close by...

That said that cunning person Caz recently pionted out you do have an example to support your theory....Colin Ireland travelled to one specific place to pick up his victims...although they were all gay...

So the possibility is there....I'd simply argue statistically AK is a more probable match than MJD

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Quite possibly so. But must not one ascertain first that a number of crimes is part of a series? There is an intelligence test given whereby one is to ascertain the next number in a series. In general, one is called on to discover a function whereby one predicts the next integer. In a few cases, the correct answer is, "None of the above" as there is no true series.

Yes I'm aware that there are a large number of posters who seem to discount that Nichols, Chapman, Eddows and MJK were perpetrated by the same hand.

But then their are those that agrue the moon is made of cheese and the earth is flat.

Take it from me they were killed by the same man. Finish.

Also, my point is that political revenge killings CAN be savage. I am sure you are familiar with the Ton Ton Makout and their necklaces?

Yes you keep claiming this. I refer you back again to Bonds autopsie report and ask you to provide other example of post mortum mutilation carried out in this way?

And you continually wriggle out because you cant do so. Your theory has no evidence to support it, just your wishful thinking.

"There are of course other serial killers with their own MO in this period the Torso murderer for a start . . . "

Given, of course, there is a unique individual responsible.

" . . . not to mention Chapman and Cream..."

And their MO seems fairly pat.

And?

"To some exten[t] it might be argued that Jack was father to a modern type of sexual serial killer . . ."

Indeed. IF there was a JTR. But even if not, people like Kurten READ about the supposed case and, to some extent, emulated him/them. But my contention is that the killer/s of the C5 NEVER read those who came after--nor yet Sigmund Freud. And so I advise that one NOT put the cart before the horse.

Take my word. There was a JtR. Who killed at least four women, possibly six, may be seven. You can deduce this by taking the trouble to read the autopsie reports and examining the medical evidence.

You dont need to consult Sigmund Freud or put any carts before a horse.

"But Jack the Ripper fit into this pattern. Yes there are differences in his victims but those differences are marked by their s[i]milarities, targeting the abdom[e]n, es[c]alation . . ."

Except for Liz. And this, of course, rules out McKenzie as she was NOT part of an escalation.--unless one makes another exception..

Having studied the Berner street murders at length I conclude Stirde was a ripper victim (Many thanks for your recent statistics Colin)

However I except the MO varied slightly from the other four....I mean attacked from behind not not mutilated..

"These murderers were perpetrated by a lone sexual serial killer."

Nice theory--and one MUST theorise. But the evidence?

READ THE MEDICAL REPORTS.

"They were not hits by a politically revolutionary group."

Again, this is only a theory to guide research. There is as much evidence for one as for the other--zero.

No Lynn, all the EVIDENCE points to a lone serial killer (and your talking to someone who some years ago toyed with a dual killer theory)

But Study of the evidence points to a lone killer.

What there is Zero evidence for is the the Whitechapel murders were Fenian related hits or some kind of bizarre religous hits or masonic rituals or witch craft or aliens from outer space.

Jack the Ripper was not an invention of the press, a Royal conspiracy or the work of a surreal artist or a forged Diary...

Everything says lone serial killer...

Pirate

[lynn cates]

coda

Hello Jeff.

"Lynn I don't recall saying that I could provide examples of sexual serial killers between 1880-90"

I thought that was our deal? Very well. I shall stifle my disappointment.

"My whole point is that [the s]erial killing phenom[e]n[on] is very rare and distinctly different [from] crimes of a political nature..."

Quite possibly so. But must not one ascertain first that a number of crimes is part of a series? There is an intelligence test given whereby one is to ascertain the next number in a series. In general, one is called on to discover a function whereby one predicts the next integer. In a few cases, the correct answer is, "None of the above" as there is no true series.

Also, my point is that political revenge killings CAN be savage. I am sure you are familiar with the Ton Ton Makout and their necklaces?

"There are of course other serial killers with their own MO in this period the Torso murderer for a start . . . "

Given, of course, there is a unique individual responsible.

" . . . not to mention Chapman and Cream..."

And their MO seems fairly pat.

"To some exten[t] it might be argued that Jack was father to a modern type of sexual serial killer . . ."

Indeed. IF there was a JTR. But even if not, people like Kurten READ about the supposed case and, to some extent, emulated him/them. But my contention is that the killer/s of the C5 NEVER read those who came after--nor yet Sigmund Freud. And so I advise that one NOT put the cart before the horse.

"But Jack the Ripper fit into this pattern. Yes there are differences in his victims but those differences are marked by their s[i]milarities, targeting the abdom[e]n, es[c]alation . . ."

Except for Liz. And this, of course, rules out McKenzie as she was NOT part of an escalation.--unless one makes another exception.

"These murderers were perpetrated by a lone sexual serial killer."

Nice theory--and one MUST theorise. But the evidence?

"They were not hits by a politically revolutionary group."

Again, this is only a theory to guide research. There is as much evidence for one as for the other--zero.

Good luck with AK.

Now, let us return this thread to the long suffering Glyn. I am content.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

Pirate,

I think you are essentially correct about serial killers in general.

On the other hand, I accept the Cullen thesis that Druitt could have killed prostitutes anywhere in London, and therefore he did have a political agenda in constantly returning to impoverished East End -- specifically the 'evil quarter mile' designated the abyss-within-the-abyss by social reformers.

[Jeff Leahy]

Lynn I dont recall saying that I could provide examples of sexual serial killers between 1880-90

My whole point is that Serial killing phenomina is very rare and distinctly different to crimes of a political nature...

There are of course other serial killers with their own MO in this period the Torso murderer for a start, not to mention Chapman and Cream...

or even earlier the Radcliff Highway murders...

To some extend it might be argued that Jack was father to a modern type of sexual serial killer: Baton Rouge, Paul Bernardo, David Berkowitz,Kenneth Bianchi, Boston Strangler, Jeffrey Dahmer, Albert Fish,Eddie Gein, Green River killer, Michael Swango, Fred and Rose west, the Zodiac Killer, Mark Dixie

The list goes on...

But Jack the Ripper fitted into this pattern. Yes there are differences in his victims but those differences are marked by their smilarities, targeting the abdoman, esqualation, the ablitoration of MJK body....

These murderers were perpetrated by a lone sexual serial killer.

They were not hits by a politically revolutionary group.

Pirtate

[lynn cates]

you promised

Hello Jeff. Thanks for including the report. I used to read all the inquest material about once a month just in case I overlooked something.

Of course these are not the same, but then neither are the mutilations the same on all the C5. But at least I took a stab at it (sorry).

Now do I get my sexual serial killer from 1880-1889 as promised?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Lynn I'm not being funny but this:


The face was gashed in all directions the nose cheeks, eyebrows and ears being partly removed. The lips were blanched & cut by several incisions running obliquely down to the chin. There were also numerous cuts extending irregularly across all the features.

The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis.

The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage.

Both breasts were removed by more or less circular incisions, the muscles down to the ribs being attached to the breasts. The intercostals between the 4th, 5th & 6th ribs were cut through & the contents of the thorax visible through the openings.

The skin & tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone, the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation & part of the right buttock. The left thigh was stripped of skin, fascia & muscles as far as the knee.

The left calf showed a long gash through skin & tissues to the deep muscles & reaching from the knee to 5 ins above the ankle.

Both arms & forearms had extensive & jagged wounds.

The right thumb showed a small superficial incision about 1 in long, with extravasation of blood in the skin & there were several abrasions on the back of the hand moreover showing the same condition.

On opening the thorax it was found that the right lung was minimally adherent by old firm adhesions. The lower part of the lung was broken & torn away.

The left lung was intact: it was adherent at the apex & there were a few adhesions over the side. In the substaces of the lung were several nodules of consolidation.

The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the links you have supplied. What you require are acts of murder or assassination that have the above characteristics.

Will you please provided them as promised

Pirate

[lynn cates]

ssk

Hello Jeff. Now do I get my 1880's sexual serial killer?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Centaur

Hello Chris. Yes, "The Centaur" was an offbeat paper. As I understand it, it was for cabbies.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nose and ears

Hello Jeff.

Go here, post #6.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4566

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Many thanks

I've done a quick browse but I'm not up on this 'out there' theory stuff..

If Lynn could just provide the promised info I;d be most grateful

Pirate

[Chris]

Hello Jeff. The post is on my Kaufman thread--post #6, if I recall properly. The snippet is from "The Centaur."

Would that be the thread we can find by clicking on "Find all threads started by lynn cates" - the second one in the list, the one entitled "Kaufmann"?

Thanks - it's good to have really challenging tasks like this thrown at us - I find they really sharpen my research abilities. Forcing us to scroll all the way down to the 6th post of the thread was a particularly nice twist, but I think supplying the name of the newspaper made it all too easy to check we'd got it right.