Best evidence for left/right/mixed-handedness

[John G]

Hi JohnG,

Probably some speculation on their behalf due to the position of her head on the kerb. The "highly dynamic struggle" most likely did not occur as the first cut severed all the arteries in the neck and Dr. Phillips concluded death was almost instantaneous. He stated even if the first cut was, "not the important one", she probably did not cry out on account of the shock.

As far as his speculation on standing on the right side he says this:

The great probability is that he was on the right side of the body at the time he killed her, and that he cut her throat with a sharp instrument

Not very detailed, but common sense would say the killer would not want to stand/crouch where the blood was pooling up the left side. Dr. Phillips also believed she was laying down when she was killed. That's why he speculates the right side, in my opinion.

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for this. I wonder how Dr Phillips arrived at the conclusion that Mackenzie was laying down when she was killed. Was this more speculation I wonder.

[Robert St Devil]

In the cases of Chapman, Stride and Eddowes, would Jack the Ripper need to ,,hold,, or turn her head during the cutting to achieve the full neck cut? As in, he has her head turned to the right when he starts his cut on the left side; then turns the head as he cuts over to the right side?

If so, and he was left handed, then he crosses hands to cut her if he is on her right side (as believed).

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

What evidence demonstrates that McKenzie was "initially attacked while standing with her back against the smaller wheels.."? Was this just speculation on the doctors behalf? Even if correct, we don't know what happened after the initial attack. I mean, a highly dynamic struggle could have subsequently ensued, which may have resulted in killer and victim ending up in any number of possible positions. And how does Dr Phillips know that the killer stood on the right hand side of the body to perform the mutilations? Is this also speculation?

Hi JohnG,

Probably some speculation on their behalf due to the position of her head on the kerb. The "highly dynamic struggle" most likely did not occur as the first cut severed all the arteries in the neck and Dr. Phillips concluded death was almost instantaneous. He stated even if the first cut was, "not the important one", she probably did not cry out on account of the shock.

As far as his speculation on standing on the right side he says this:

The great probability is that he was on the right side of the body at the time he killed her, and that he cut her throat with a sharp instrument

Not very detailed, but common sense would say the killer would not want to stand/crouch where the blood was pooling up the left side. Dr. Phillips also believed she was laying down when she was killed. That's why he speculates the right side, in my opinion.

[John G]

I agree with Jon that Alice McKenzie is the best example to show a right handed killer in her case, at least.

First off, the police authorities on July 18th believed the evidence showed Alice was initially attacked while standing with her back against the smaller wheels of one of the barrows. With two throat wounds only on the left side of her neck and the killer facing her, he could not have been left handed. If the killer attacked from the rear with his left hand, he would have had an awkward motion of pushing the knife forward. Why not slash the entire throat from right to left if attacking from the rear?

Secondly, the marks on the abdomen that Jon pointed out were so important that Dr. Phillips waited until August 15th and a second inquest to conclude that the marks were indeed from the nails of a hand. He concluded they were not Alice's but another party and that the killer stood at the right hand side of the body to perform the abdominal mutilations. That would put the killer between the Alice's body and the barrows.(which makes sense to me to hide himself from view) He also determined the larger of the five marks was the lowest on the body. That, to me, indicates the thumb.

So we have a killer stooping over the right side of Alice, placing his left hand over the center line of the body to brace for a cut under her right breast with the right hand. This evidence also shows that at least at the time of the mutilation, our killer wasn't wearing gloves.

Hi Jerry,

What evidence demonstrates that McKenzie was "initially attacked while standing with her back against the smaller wheels.."? Was this just speculation on the doctors behalf? Even if correct, we don't know what happened after the initial attack. I mean, a highly dynamic struggle could have subsequently ensued, which may have resulted in killer and victim ending up in any number of possible positions. And how does Dr Phillips know that the killer stood on the right hand side of the body to perform the mutilations? Is this also speculation?

[jerryd]

I agree with Jon that Alice McKenzie is the best example to show a right handed killer in her case, at least.

First off, the police authorities on July 18th believed the evidence showed Alice was initially attacked while standing with her back against the smaller wheels of one of the barrows. With two throat wounds only on the left side of her neck and the killer facing her, he could not have been left handed. If the killer attacked from the rear with his left hand, he would have had an awkward motion of pushing the knife forward. Why not slash the entire throat from right to left if attacking from the rear?

Secondly, the marks on the abdomen that Jon pointed out were so important that Dr. Phillips waited until August 15th and a second inquest to conclude that the marks were indeed from the nails of a hand. He concluded they were not Alice's but another party and that the killer stood at the right hand side of the body to perform the abdominal mutilations. That would put the killer between the Alice's body and the barrows.(which makes sense to me to hide himself from view) He also determined the larger of the five marks was the lowest on the body. That, to me, indicates the thumb.

So we have a killer stooping over the right side of Alice, placing his left hand over the center line of the body to brace for a cut under her right breast with the right hand. This evidence also shows that at least at the time of the mutilation, our killer wasn't wearing gloves.

[John G]

If the throats were cut when standing their would be blood down the front of the victim, and also there is a strong case that Nichols and Chapman had their breathing interfered with (ie suffocated or strangled) - would they be standing up after been strangled, smothered or throttled ?

Hi Jon,

Interesting point. However, Dr Biggs has opined that, "arterial spurting is quite uncommon in the wild. Arteries, even large ones, usually go into acute spasm when cut, providing very effective control of bleeding...Also, even if cut, the initial spray is blocked by surrounding structures such that the blood either remains inside the body or simply gushes/flows/drips out of the external skin hole rather than spurting." (Marriott, 2013)

[Joshua Rogan]

I would think it was more difficult for a left-handed killer, myself, but then a lot depends on how you imagine the killer and victim were positioned, how the knife was held and what sort of action was used.
Is there anything to suggest MJK sustained only one wound to the throat, or could the right carotid artery have been severed first and the wound continued all around once the initial blood flow had decreased?

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Yes, I take it to mean severed all round as that is what is described, same as with Chapman.
It was because the neck was severed all round that they had to guess that it was the right carotid that had been cut first (from the spray on wall).

Jon

Not convinced, I would expect some splatter on the left side,
so I can't agree with that view at present
However I am prepared to accept you could well be right.

The Kelly injury, however deep it was suggests someone left handed, but it could be done by a right hander, even if a little awkward.
Nothing on this thread as convinced me overwhelmingly if left or right handed.

sometimes there is no answer!

steve

[Jon Guy]

yes, I had missed that, hands up.

it is clear that the bone had been hit, however it is down to how you see "all round" I guess
While it seems obvious and clear cut at first sight; I would say that Phillips states that death was caused by severance of the right carotid artery, he comes to this conclusion due to the large amount of blood and spray pattern on the wall. If the left had been cut at the same time would there not have been a large amount of blood on left hand side as well and some blood splatter as there was on the right side?

Because of that, in my mind that is open to debate, you may not agree.
If so we will have to agree to disagree

cheers

Steve

Hi Steve

Yes, I take it to mean severed all round as that is what is described, same as with Chapman.
It was because the neck was severed all round that they had to guess that it was the right carotid that had been cut first (from the spray on wall).

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Dr Bond: The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera. The breasts were cut off, the arms mutilated by several jagged wounds and the face hacked beyond recognition of the features. The tissues of the neck were severed all round down to the bone.

yes, I had missed that, hands up.

it is clear that the bone had been hit, however it is down to how you see "all round" I guess
While it seems obvious and clear cut at first sight; I would say that Phillips states that death was caused by severance of the right carotid artery, he comes to this conclusion due to the large amount of blood and spray pattern on the wall. If the left had been cut at the same time would there not have been a large amount of blood on left hand side as well and some blood splatter as there was on the right side?

Because of that, in my mind that is open to debate, you may not agree.
If so we will have to agree to disagree

cheers

Steve

[Jon Guy]

My view is the throats were cut from behind while they were still standing.

If the throats were cut when standing their would be blood down the front of the victim, and also there is a strong case that Nichols and Chapman had their breathing interfered with (ie suffocated or strangled) - would they be standing up after been strangled, smothered or throttled ?

[Elamarna]

I think you will find Nicholls,and Eddowes were as well, and when you look at those wounds, its hard to imagine how they could have been inflicted if the victims were laying on their backs.

Of course if there were multiple killers then each may have killed in a different fashion of the ones that I think were linked you have mentioned them Chapman. Nicholls. Eddowes

My view is the throats were cut from behind while they were still standing.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,

yes they were certainly closer to decapitation than Kelly or Stride, Eddowes in particular is reasonable close to Chapman.
I would therefore amend what I said and say that Eddowes was close to decapitation, but no so close a Chapman.

I understand your comments about it being difficult to inflect such wounds on a body on the ground.however if they were already subdued, which has been suggested often, it would be possible I think.

To summarize

Nichols, unable to say if from behind or side.
Chapman, probably from behind, if conscious when throat cut. if already subdued then probably from the side.
Stride from behind
Eddowes same as Chapman
Kelly from the side.
Mackenzie similar to Eddowes and Chapmans.

Regards

Steve

[Jon Guy]

Jon

I will have to disagree with you there

Bond said:

" The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis.

The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

at the inquest Phillips stated:

"The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "


Neither Doctor says all the way round, there is no mention of the left carotid in either report.
its is a question of interpretation or am a missing something Jon?

if I am happy to accept that.

steve

Hi Steve

Dr Bond: The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera. The breasts were cut off, the arms mutilated by several jagged wounds and the face hacked beyond recognition of the features. The tissues of the neck were severed all round down to the bone.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

From the pm notes we know that Kelly`s throat was cut right around
This shows the importance of using the primary sources.

Jon

I will have to disagree with you there

Bond said:

" The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis.

The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage."

at the inquest Phillips stated:

"The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner. "


Neither Doctor says all the way round, there is no mention of the left carotid in either report.
its is a question of interpretation or am a missing something Jon?

if I am happy to accept that.

steve

[Jon Guy]

Jon

He very strongly suggests that the killer may have been right handed, and standing behind, this is where I part company with his views, could easily have been to the side or straddling. With regards to Kelly he suggests it was probably in the left hand. but is not conclusive on that point

He does not claim a "copy cat" for Kelly but certainly speculates on a separate killer.

One point, the diagrams, if they are accurate show that Kelly's throat was not cut right round, but it certainly hit the vertebrae. The vessels on the left hand side appear to be intact.

In the Chapman case all the vessels were severed and only the skin and muscle at the rear of the vertebrae were intact.

At the end of the day, I view the article as useful for the wounds, the rest is speculation.

Steve
steve

Hi Steve

From the pm notes we know that Kelly`s throat was cut right around
This shows the importance of using the primary sources.