Best evidence for left/right/mixed-handedness

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Does he attempt to answer which hand of the killer wielded the knife ?

I do disagree with him on his point that (if I remember correctly) Kelly was a victim of a copy cat.
Because, apart from Kelly`s extra mutilations, she and Chapman both had their necks completely cut right around, had the surface of their abdomen`s removed in 3 flaps, and their bodies were found in the same position.

Jon

He very strongly suggests that the killer may have been right handed, and standing behind, this is where I part company with his views, could easily have been to the side or straddling for some of the murders.
With regards to Kelly he suggests it was probably in the left hand. but is not conclusive on that point

He does not claim a "copy cat" for Kelly but certainly speculates on a separate killer.

One point, the diagrams, if they are accurate show that Kelly's throat was not cut right round, but it certainly hit the vertebrae. The vessels on the left hand side appear to be intact.

In the Chapman case all the vessels were severed and only the skin and muscle at the rear of the vertebrae were intact.

At the end of the day, I view the article as useful for the wounds, the rest is speculation.

Steve
steve

[Trevor Marriott]

Jon

Very useful article for understanding the neck wounds.
It demonstrates clearly that only Chapman was close to decapitation.

Steve

I think you will find Nicholls,and Eddowes were as well, and when you look at those wounds, its hard to imagine how they could have been inflicted if the victims were laying on their backs.

Of course if there were multiple killers then each may have killed in a different fashion of the ones that I think were linked you have mentioned them Chapman. Nicholls. Eddowes

My view is the throats were cut from behind while they were still standing.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, they can.
For example, in the McKenzie case the doctor who saw the body in situ and performed the post mortem clearly states in his report that the victim was forced down to the ground and held there by a hand on the chest as her throat was cut.

That was the doctors opinion only, but as stated modern day experts tell us that with what is now known in the 21st century, those opinions were at times nothing more than guesswork, just like estimating times of death, just like saying the killer was left handed. None can be conclusively proven. But these statements about these certain issues by modern day experts seem for some hard to accept

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

Jon
He does not say that, I was summarizing.
He examines every neck wound wound, presenting diagrams to indicated the damage, muscles and vessels cut.
In all but Kelly, he all the C5 plus Mackenzie and Coles, the wound starts on the left of the neck; in the Kelly case it starts on the right, which given her position on the bed is understandable.

Very useful article for understanding the neck wounds.
It demonstrates clearly that only Chapman was close to decapitation.

Steve

Hi Steve

Does he attempt to answer which hand of the killer wielded the knife ?

I do disagree with him on his point that (if I remember correctly) Kelly was a victim of a copy cat.
Because, apart from Kelly`s extra mutilations, she and Chapman both had their necks completely cut right around, had the surface of their abdomen`s removed in 3 flaps, and their bodies were found in the same position.

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Yes, I think read that a while back.
Myself, I take each murder on it`s own merit, using the doctors post mortem notes and crime scene info.

Which victims does Magellan refer to when he states " the wounds with exception of MJK" ?

Jon
He does not say that, I was summarizing.
He examines every neck wound wound, presenting diagrams to indicated the damage, muscles and vessels cut.
In all but Kelly, he all the C5 plus Mackenzie and Coles, the wound starts on the left of the neck; in the Kelly case it starts on the right, which given her position on the bed is understandable.

Very useful article for understanding the neck wounds.
It demonstrates clearly that only Chapman was close to decapitation.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

But you have been told that those medical opinions given back then are now looked on by modern day forensic experts as unreliable, and were nothing more than at times guesswork, That applies to all.

Which medical opinions, Trevor ? All of them ?
Surely not working out which hand the bruising caused by fingers belonged to ?

As I said, Dr Biggs opinion is too general, which is a shame as there a number of points he may have found illuminating.

[Trevor Marriott]

The thread is about best evidence for left/right/mixed handedness NOT which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders.

What exactly did Biggs have to say about Dr Phillips notes on Alice McKenzie?



Who is trying to "reconstruct" events from the appearance of wounds ?
That`s what I meant when I say his comments were too general.



Exactly, as I say, study each murder on it`s own merit.



Yes, these people "who were present at the time " are the only people I look to as they kindly left behind post mortem notes and descriptions of the crime scene.

But you have been told that those medical opinions given back then are now looked on by modern day forensic experts as unreliable, and were nothing more than at times guesswork, That applies to all.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Jon Guy]

You clearly haven't read Dr Biggs comments with regards to these issues with regards to this specific topic

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

The thread is about best evidence for left/right/mixed handedness NOT which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders.

What exactly did Biggs have to say about Dr Phillips notes on Alice McKenzie?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc. ?

Who is trying to "reconstruct" events from the appearance of wounds ?
That`s what I meant when I say his comments were too general.

Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping…) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on. ?

Exactly, as I say, study each murder on it`s own merit.

Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), ?

Yes, these people "who were present at the time " are the only people I look to as they kindly left behind post mortem notes and descriptions of the crime scene.

[Jon Guy]

Jon,

My own views on this have been greatly influenced by Article Cut Throat by Karyo Magellan,

It seems clear that the wounds appear to come from the same direction with the exception of MJK. that of course is not the same as saying which hand was used, just the direction of the cut. which of course may hint at the hand used, but is not conclusive.

Steve

Hi Steve

Yes, I think read that a while back.
Myself, I take each murder on it`s own merit, using the doctors post mortem notes and crime scene info.

Which victims does Magellan refer to when he states " the wounds with exception of MJK" ?

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes, they can.
For example, in the McKenzie case the doctor who saw the body in situ and performed the post mortem clearly states in his report that the victim was forced down to the ground and held there by a hand on the chest as her throat was cut.

You clearly haven't read Dr Biggs comments with regards to these issues with regards to this specific topic

Q. The doctors in their reports offer opinions as to in which position the killer was in relation to the victims when carrying out the murders. Are these opinions reliable or simply guesswork?

A. In answer to your question, it is really impossible to say with certainty how the wounds were inflicted in terms of ‘reconstructing’ events from the appearance of wounds. This is something that used to be quite ‘popular’ even up until relatively late on in the 20thcentury, with pathologists stating confidently that a left-handed dwarf with a limp inflicted the injury from behind using a specific knife, etc.

Nowadays it is accepted that there is so much variation that in such cases, apart from a few ‘extreme’ scenarios that can be more-or-less excluded, just about anything is possible.

So in other words, the killer could have been behind the victim (with them both standing), or he (or she!) could have been ‘above’ the victim (kneeling, squatting, crouched, lying, stooping…) whilst she lay upon the ground (+/- prior strangling). Or it could have happened during a highly dynamic struggle, with all manners of grappling, twisting and fortuitous slashing going on.

Only persons present at the time really know what went on (and we can’t ask them!), and nobody can be certain about a ‘reconstruction’ now based on photos / medical records. If a number of envisaged scenarios are actually ‘possible’, then nobody can really argue in favour of a particular one any more than another.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

Jon,

My own views on this have been greatly influenced by Article Cut Throat by Karyo Magellan,

It seems clear that the wounds appear to come from the same direction with the exception of MJK. that of course is not the same as saying which hand was used, just the direction of the cut. which of course may hint at the hand used, but is not conclusive.

Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

Yes, I did read the comments on the thread.

But you will note that despite certain posters declaring the thread redundant because of Dr Biggs views, I was still able to provide an example of whether the killer was left/right handed based on a doctor`s findings. We can even say that in the instance to which I refer, that the killer had long, pointed fingernails.

I believe Dr Biggs is talking generally. Because, if we take each murder on it`s own merit, and study the details of the post mortem and crime scene
it can sometimes be possible to reach a reasonable conclusion as to whether the victim was lying down when their throat was cut. In some cases it is possible to identify a left handed or right handed killer.

Jon

I have no problem with your points, as I said my post was mainly about the appearance of some not reading previous threads.

That appearance has now been cleared up, for all to see.

Steve

[Jon Guy]

Those facts cannot be conclusivley proven !

Yes, they can.
For example, in the McKenzie case the doctor who saw the body in situ and performed the post mortem clearly states in his report that the victim was forced down to the ground and held there by a hand on the chest as her throat was cut.

[Jon Guy]

Jon,
my point was really about people being clear about the thread.
The first 12 posts were all about comments by Dr Biggs, after which there was a gap and then people again posted and reading those posts it was easy to gain the impression that people were not reading all the posts, as there appeared to be an no reference to those early posts, which if disagreeing with i would expect to be mentioned, even if only in passing.

if that had happened after say another 5 or 6 pages i could understand it more, as a thread gets longer it is obviously hard to read all of it.

Kattrup has made it clear that he had, I certainly assume you had.

Once again it is was aimed at clarity from posters rather than any individual, which I think will be clear from my responses to Kattrup and hopefull from this post as well.

regards

Steve

Hi Steve

Yes, I did read the comments on the thread.

But you will note that despite certain posters declaring the thread redundant because of Dr Biggs views, I was still able to provide an example of whether the killer was left/right handed based on a doctor`s findings. We can even say that in the instance to which I refer, that the killer had long, pointed fingernails.

I believe Dr Biggs is talking generally. Because, if we take each murder on it`s own merit, and study the details of the post mortem and crime scene
it can sometimes be possible to reach a reasonable conclusion as to whether the victim was lying down when their throat was cut. In some cases it is possible to identify a left handed or right handed killer.

[Trevor Marriott]

Nichols, Eddowes and McKenzie were on their backs when their throats were cut.

Those facts cannot be conclusivley proven !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk