Victimology, MO, signature

[Rosella]

Did Thomas Conway ever say that he supported the Fenians or that he was for Irish Home Rule, and where do we get that Catherine Eddowes was in agreement with him if he was?

[Michael W Richards]

Are you sure it wasn't 1887? As revealed by a cutting about Balfour's forthcoming appearance in Birmingham from the Daily News of 12 October 1887, found in the possession of one of the Jubilee plotters.

I believe that the plot was foiled in 1888. I don't believe that there is any record that it was planned for 87 in Birmingham.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

So Fenian terrorists were killing the women because the women knew of there terrorist plots and were going to out them? Is that what your saying?

Actually no, that's not what Im suggesting. What Im suggesting is that Kate may have known of men capable of murder, (since she apparently claimed she knew the killer at large), and with her exposure to the local Irish community via Conway she likely knew of Irish self rule factions within it. Wiothin those factions were certainly men capable of killing.

Kate may have been killed because she let people know she was going to rat out someone. That someone would have to be someone capable of murder...I suggested a community that at that time had dangerous secrets that might become public if it weren't for hush money and perhaps silencing some witnesses.

Since I do not believe a single killer was responsible for more than the deaths of Polly and Annie, I don't see the need to apply a blanket motive for all five murders.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

I am so confused here. Are we supposed to stick to the evidence or are we allowed to speculate? Which is it? I am getting mixed signals from you.

c.d.

I think where you lose me is on the premise for the speculation cd...if there is no evidence from which to then propose an idea of what may have transpired, then it is idle speculation and for entertainment only. If you extrapolate based upon known evidence,... in this case in the form of the ex-landlady Kate confided in, the anomalies with the accounting of her last 24 hours, the police opinion of an arranged meeting and her probable exposure to certain less than savory characters through her Irish contacts, then it has some possible merit in investigation discussions.

[Michael W Richards]

I though I should offer an example of what I mean cd....discussions that suggest Israel Schwartz was a valued witness, and minute scrutiny on what he claimed happened.

The records that exist do not indicate that Israel Schwartz or his story were entered in any form into the Inquest records, nor is there any record he or his story was intentionally withheld. So any attempt to find clues as to what really happened to Liz Stride will not be found within that tale or from that source.

[David Orsam]

I believe that the plot was foiled in 1888. I don't believe that there is any record that it was planned for 87 in Birmingham.

Well, Michael, the record, or evidence, is that in October 1887 a newspaper cutting was found by the police in the pocket of one of the Jubilee plotters, Michael Hawkins, which provided information as to where Balfour was going to be, addressing a public meeting in Birmingham, in about a week's time, and Hawkins, who was also in possession of a loaded revolver when he was arrested, could not account for having it. As Christy Campbell says in Fenian Fire (p.364): 'The implication was clear: Balfour was an assassination target.'

Now, what is your evidence that a plot on Balfour's life was foiled in 1888?

[Michael W Richards]

Well, Michael, the record, or evidence, is that in October 1887 a newspaper cutting was found by the police in the pocket of one of the Jubilee plotters, Michael Hawkins, which provided information as to where Balfour was going to be, addressing a public meeting in Birmingham, in about a week's time, and Hawkins, who was also in possession of a loaded revolver when he was arrested, could not account for having it. As Christy Campbell says in Fenian Fire (p.364): 'The implication was clear: Balfour was an assassination target.'

Now, what is your evidence that a plot on Balfour's life was foiled in 1888?

In May of 1888 Central News among others reported that an attempt on Balfours life had recently been prevented, the central figure in the plot was John S Walsh of the Clan-na-Gael. The Tribune on June 5th, 1888 published this from a Special Cable Dispatch:

"It is now believed that the plan was to kill Balfour in St. James Park. The Irish Office is near this park, and it had been Balfours habit of walking through the park on the way to and from the office. He was never in the company of more than one officer. The police here profess to be well pleased with breaking up the plot and scaring off its planners."

Cheers

[David Orsam]

In May of 1888 Central News among others reported that an attempt on Balfours life had recently been prevented, the central figure in the plot was John S Walsh of the Clan-na-Gael. The Tribune on June 5th, 1888 published this from a Special Cable Dispatch:

"It is now believed that the plan was to kill Balfour in St. James Park. The Irish Office is near this park, and it had been Balfours habit of walking through the park on the way to and from the office. He was never in the company of more than one officer. The police here profess to be well pleased with breaking up the plot and scaring off its planners."

Okay, Michael, fair enough. Walsh was, of course, in Paris in May 1888 and never set foot in London (not to mention that he is considered by some to have been working for the British secret service) so it is stretching the language a bit to say any kind of plot was 'foiled' - Walsh was packed off back from France to the States - and the Tribune story is probably nonsense - but you were not doing what I thought you might be doing which was getting the year wrong of the Hawkins plot.

[Abby Normal]

Actually no, that's not what Im suggesting. What Im suggesting is that Kate may have known of men capable of murder, (since she apparently claimed she knew the killer at large), and with her exposure to the local Irish community via Conway she likely knew of Irish self rule factions within it. Wiothin those factions were certainly men capable of killing.

Kate may have been killed because she let people know she was going to rat out someone. That someone would have to be someone capable of murder...I suggested a community that at that time had dangerous secrets that might become public if it weren't for hush money and perhaps silencing some witnesses.

Since I do not believe a single killer was responsible for more than the deaths of Polly and Annie, I don't see the need to apply a blanket motive for all five murders.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying your ideas.

[Jon Guy]

My point is that he could have contacted anybody to make sure the victim was found. He could even have contacted the police.

But he didn`t contact anyone, did he?

Your point about the killer killing indoors so the body was found blah blah Lord Mayor`s blah blah....

As I said, indoors, Kelly could have lain undiscovered all day whereas killing on the streets ...

Shame you don`t give us anymore details of your theory ..

[curious4]

I though I should offer an example of what I mean cd....discussions that suggest Israel Schwartz was a valued witness, and minute scrutiny on what he claimed happened.

The records that exist do not indicate that Israel Schwartz or his story were entered in any form into the Inquest records, nor is there any record he or his story was intentionally withheld. So any attempt to find clues as to what really happened to Liz Stride will not be found within that tale or from that source.

Swanson thought enough of his evidence to include it in a report to the Home Office.

Best wishes
C4

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Pierre;358965]

Shall we try to make our short definition of the three?

My suggestion:

Victimology:

Poor women often addicted to alcohol selling their bodies cheaply and/or vagabonding in Whitechapel or the City

MO (modus operandi):

Execution in places with a high risk of fast discovery

Signature:

Honour based mutilations and posing

I agree with this except from the victimology.

Pierre

[Elamarna]

[QUOTE=Pierre;430385]

I agree with this except from the victimology.

Pierre

In what way is your view of this now different?


Steve

[Varqm]

The characteristics,in my opinion that somehow mattered,left by the killer:

1) foreign accent

2) little taller than the victim,then compared to the
height of the victim.

3) not uncomfortable to be seen with the victims minutes before their murders.

4) Dates of the murders,end of the month or the 8th.

5) direction from Mitre Square to Goulston.

6) Cox's description.

7) experience with a knife and inside the body,animals and/or human - slaughtering/butchery/post mortem/vivsection

8) human anatomical knowledge

All based on the inquests only.The police were also looking at the inquests,the materials they submitted to the coroner,for "leads".They had nothing substantial/good outside of it, just rumors,bad/unreliable witnesses and police official's take on the case.The inquests were the closest thing we have on what happened,anything outside of it were/are secondary.


-------

[Abby Normal]

The characteristics,in my opinion that somehow mattered,left by the killer:

1) foreign accent

2) little taller than the victim,then compared to the
height of the victim.

3) not uncomfortable to be seen with the victims minutes before their murders.

4) Dates of the murders,end of the month or the 8th.

5) direction from Mitre Square to Goulston.

6) Cox's description.

7) experience with a knife and inside the body,animals and/or human - slaughtering/butchery/post mortem/vivsection

8) human anatomical knowledge

All based on the inquests only.The police were also looking at the inquests,the materials they submitted to the coroner,for "leads".They had nothing substantial/good outside of it, just rumors,bad/unreliable witnesses and police official's take on the case.The inquests were the closest thing we have on what happened,anything outside of it were/are secondary.


-------

Agree with all accept foreign accent. Any witness who heard suspects speak never mention an accent. On the contrary, its normal english. Only mrs long mentions anything about a foreigner... but only saying he looked foreign, and she only saw him from the back.

Id wager he was english local and gentile to boot.