Victimology, MO, signature

[DJA]

Some questions are;

1.The pawn ticket was for Friday, not Saturday as John said. They had money Friday night...so why did Kate supposedly go to a casual ward? And why, by the storyline, was she released without having to do any labor for her bed...as was the rule at casual wards.
2. Kate told a friend she intended to collect reward money for giving police the name of the killer at large...if so, was she blackmailing that party for an even greater reward?
3. She had no money that we are aware of on Saturday afternoon, yet she gets stupid drunk on someones money by 8pm. Who paid, and why?
4. Early on the police themselves speculated she had an "arranged meeting'? What prompted them to make that statement"?
.

1. If you mean the Shoe Lane Casual Ward,that was in Nichols' old stomping ground. Not "Whitechapel",but Fleet Street.
"Sailor" Hutchinson's late father ran a hotel around the corner at one time.
2. Obviously.
The reward would be difficult to collect when it became obvious that all CV5 were in on it.
Eddowes/Conway and Nichols had known each other since 1867.Notice how she moves in next door to Kate just before the hop picking.
3.Jack the Ripper.
4.That is new to me.No doubt they knew though.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael

I agree. There is no evidence that Kate ever prostituted herself. I believe she was feigning drunkeness, needing a safe place to wait before an appointment with her killer, hence her preoccupation with the time. She was obviously on good terms with the supervisor of the casual ward if she confided to that she thought she knew the killer's identity, so I have always thought she talked him into releasing her early, or else (from memory I think the women did cleaning jobs and the men picked oakum) she finished her task early.

Best wishes
C4

I have no problem with the above thinking curious. Although, I would say that for me, its likely she did get hammered, that the objective of her drinking partners was to get her into that state so she wouldn't be hesitant about talking to them about her supposed claim on the reward, and I think that what they learned from her had something to do with her being murdered. I also think its possible that the hand on sailor mans chest might have been her being thankful that sailor man waited for her, perhaps a meeting may have been set for 1am.

If you think the above is possible, then you might also agree with me that because of the very short time elapsed between the sighting and her discovery, sailor man might have led her to someone already waiting in the square.

Cheers

[Graham]

I don't know whether you guys have clocked this, but as this thread has got more, shall we say, 'technical' and 'involved', Pierre seems to have lost interest in it. Which kind of leads me to suspect that his knowledge of the Case is at best superficial, and at worst based upon what he probably spends time on picking up from these boards as he goes along, so to speak.

Graham

[Michael W Richards]

I don't know whether you guys have clocked this, but as this thread has got more, shall we say, 'technical' and 'involved', Pierre seems to have lost interest in it. Which kind of leads me to suspect that his knowledge of the Case is at best superficial, and at worst based upon what he probably spends time on picking up from these boards as he goes along, so to speak.

Graham

I think Graham that Monsieur Pierre is just baiting bears. Not an advisable hobby.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi Curious,


Some questions are;

How often was Liz Stride soliciting, when she said herself that she had been working for a few months "among the Jews"?
Its easy to speculate those three were soliciting, far harder to provide any proof of that.

Working among the Jews could mean working for those who didn't want to break the Sabbath, which means one day/week.

[Wickerman]

... How often did Mary solicit, with almost 3 weeks in rent arrears and a fear of the streets that Fall?

Its easy to speculate those three were soliciting, far harder to provide any proof of that.

Hi Michael.

Barnett told Abberline directly in his police statement when they sat together sometime on the 9th, that Mary had already resorted to prostitution before he left on the 30th.

"...in consequence of not earning sufficient money to give her, and her resorting to prostitution, I resolved on leaving her..."

[DJA]

Yet three days later,Barnett testified there was only one reason for leaving.

[Wickerman]

Inquest records are not to be taken as all inclusive.

[DJA]

Do you think Barnett was telling the truth?

[c.d.]

There is an old joke that goes like this -- A man is talking to a woman in a bar and asks her if she would sleep with a man for a million dollars. She replies for a million of course. He then asks her if she would sleep with him for ten dollars. She is offended and says of course not what do you take me for? He replies we have already established that now we are just arguing about the price.

The point being that if it can be established with reasonable certainty that the victims all engaged in prostitution at one time or another it is not unreasonable to believe that even though they were not actively soliciting or had no intention of soliciting before they ventured out on the night they were killed that they might be tempted by an offer that came their way particularly if it was a generous offer or at least more than the going rate. Such an offer would be easy to make for a killer who knew he could get his money back.

c.d.

[Barnaby]

With respect to Eddowes, I doubt very much that she had knowledge of the murderer and arranged a meeting with him. How would she have acquired this knowledge? She had just returned to London afterall.

[DJA]

With respect to Eddowes, I doubt very much that she had knowledge of the murderer and arranged a meeting with him. How would she have acquired this knowledge? She had just returned to London afterall.

She returned to London to collect a reward.

Has it dawned on you that the CV5 knew each other?

[curious4]

I have no problem with the above thinking curious. Although, I would say that for me, its likely she did get hammered, that the objective of her drinking partners was to get her into that state so she wouldn't be hesitant about talking to them about her supposed claim on the reward, and I think that what they learned from her had something to do with her being murdered. I also think its possible that the hand on sailor mans chest might have been her being thankful that sailor man waited for her, perhaps a meeting may have been set for 1am.

If you think the above is possible, then you might also agree with me that because of the very short time elapsed between the sighting and her discovery, sailor man might have led her to someone already waiting in the square.

Cheers

Hello Michael

Yes I think that is a distinct possibility. She obviously trusted him completely. Not sure she would have got drunk and talked about it, there was the risk that someone would beat her to the reward.

Best wishes
C4

[packers stem]

Do you think Barnett was telling the truth?

No
Not even with the ID...

[packers stem]

Hi Curious,

We are told that Kate and John slept together almost every night, yet when she exits the police station, she goes in the opposite direction of where he would likely be. I believe John did in fact secure a bed for that night, so, had Kate gone looking for him she wouldn't have to walk the streets. The City's policy of holding D & D's until they were sober, unlike the Met who held them all night, did contribute to street traffic...but with Kate there are stories about her that make us question why she went to Mitre Square, and what happened those last 24 hours.
Some questions are;

1.The pawn ticket was for Friday, not Saturday as John said. They had money Friday night...so why did Kate supposedly go to a casual ward? And why, by the storyline, was she released without having to do any labor for her bed...as was the rule at casual wards.
2. Kate told a friend she intended to collect reward money for giving police the name of the killer at large...if so, was she blackmailing that party for an even greater reward?
3. She had no money that we are aware of on Saturday afternoon, yet she gets stupid drunk on someones money by 8pm. Who paid, and why?
4. Early on the police themselves speculated she had an "arranged meeting'? What prompted them to make that statement"?

Its far to easy, and without any evidence, saying that Kate was probably soliciting. Since she had been hopping for weeks, and since we have evidence that she and John were together every night by the landlord...just how often was she soliciting at that place in time? If at all.

How often was Liz Stride soliciting, when she said herself that she had been working for a few months "among the Jews"? How often did Mary solicit, with almost 3 weeks in rent arrears and a fear of the streets that Fall?

Its easy to speculate those three were soliciting, far harder to provide any proof of that.

Excellent post
And it should never be forgotten that Kate was going by the name 'mary kelly' that day...
So whoever got her drunk believed her to be Mary Kelly
And whoever got her drunk almost certainly met her and killed her believing she was in fact...Mary Kelly