More than one killer theory dismissed

[lynn cates]

quickie

Hello Jon. Indeed. And that number is two.

If, however, you wish to set medical evidence aside--as Baxter suggested--and focus on a quick kill and evasion of detection, then you may push that number as close to a round dozen as you like.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Lynn

Indeed. And that number is two.

I link more than two together.
Would your two be Chapman and Kelly, as they seem the obvious two to connect?

If, however, you wish to set medical evidence aside--as Baxter suggested--

All we`ve got to work with is the medical evidence, so I cannot do that, my friend.

and focus on a quick kill and evasion of detection, then you may push that number as close to a round dozen as you like.

Indeed, I believe the police file entitled The Whitechapel Murders covers eleven murders.

[lynn cates]

Links--and that's not rechts.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

“Would your two be Chapman and Kelly, as they seem the obvious two to connect?”

Clearly not. They are certainly not obviously connected from my point of view.

Many have proclaimed these most alike and they do that on the strength of WHAT was done. I see MUCH more similarity in Polly and Annie on the strength of HOW it was done.

Permit an analogy. Three 10 step ladders and three CC TV’s. The ladder climbers look roughly the same and their heads/faces are not on the TV’s. The first ascends but 9 steps and the TV cuts off. The second ascends all the way to the top rung, as does the third climber. I daresay you and most commentators would proclaim #1 the odd man out and link #2 & #3. But I would prefer to point to the fact that both #1 & #2—although taking a disparate number of steps (#1 not going as far as #2)—began on the left foot; #3 on the right. And I might also observe that #1 took his 9 steps one at a time, as did #2, whilst #3 climbed two steps at a time. (Caveat: this is merely an analogy.)

To put it succinctly. Polly and Annie BOTH had clear facial bruising; Kate did not. Polly and Annie BOTH had overt signs of strangulation; Kate did not. Polly and Annie BOTH evinced signs of an assailant who was deft with a knife; Kate did not. Polly and Annie BOTH had similar double cuts to the throat; Kate did not.

So, while superficially one may link Annie and Kate, it seems just obvious to me that Polly and Annie are linked.

“All we`ve got to work with is the medical evidence, so I cannot do that, my friend.”

Delighted! Then, based on the medical evidence ALONE—in particular the forensics—we have two victims of the same hand, and they are Polly and Annie.

“Indeed, I believe the police file entitled The Whitechapel Murders covers eleven murders.”

Yes. And that is a good example of a linking of disparate elements. See what can happen when imagination runs wild?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

“Would your two be Chapman and Kelly, as they seem the obvious two to connect?”
Clearly not. They are certainly not obviously connected from my point of view.
Many have proclaimed these most alike and they do that on the strength of WHAT was done. I see MUCH more similarity in Polly and Annie on the strength of HOW it was done.

C`mon, we don`t know for sure HOW it was done in any of the cases. As I said we have the medical evidence showing us WHAT was done

To put it succinctly. Polly and Annie BOTH had clear facial bruising; Kate did not. Polly and Annie BOTH had overt signs of strangulation; Kate did not. Polly and Annie BOTH evinced signs of an assailant who was deft with a knife; Kate did not. Polly and Annie BOTH had similar double cuts to the throat; Kate did not.
So, while superficially one may link Annie and Kate, it seems just obvious to me that Polly and Annie are linked.

On that basis, Tabram and Nichols are closely linked due to signs of strangulation and a stab to the privates - unlike Chapman.
Eddowes killer had the same basic skills.

“All we`ve got to work with is the medical evidence, so I cannot do that, my friend.”
Delighted! Then, based on the medical evidence ALONE—in particular the forensics—we have two victims of the same hand, and they are Polly and Annie.

No, in my opinion, four, possibly six are connected through medical evidence.

“Indeed, I believe the police file entitled The Whitechapel Murders covers eleven murders.”
Yes. And that is a good example of a linking of disparate elements. See what can happen when imagination runs wild?

I didn`t realise the police thought all eleven murders were linked, other than they were unsolved murders involving women?
As we all know, Dr Bond linked five of them on Nov 10th `88, at the request of the Police.

I do see what happens when imagination runs wild. ;-)

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello Jon. Thanks.

“C`mon, we don`t know for sure HOW it was done in any of the cases. As I said we have the medical evidence showing us WHAT was done.”

But of course we can. Dr. Brown was able to ascertain how the knife was held by examining the cuts in Kate’s cricoid cartilage. You might have another go at his inquest testimony. Very revealing. I discover new information each time I read it—and I am into the dozens of times now.

“On that basis, Tabram and Nichols are closely linked due to signs of strangulation and a stab to the privates - unlike Chapman.”

Can you direct me to the discussion of Tabram’s strangulation? I must have missed that one.

Chapman’s private parts were partly removed, as you recall.

“Eddowes's killer had the same basic skills.”

Sorry, no he did not.

“No, in my opinion, four, possibly six are connected through medical evidence.”

Depends on how loosely we construe “medical evidence.”

“I didn`t realise the police thought all eleven murders were linked, other than they were unsolved murders involving women?”

Nor yet the canonical five—there were many dissenters. It is only recently that theorists have tried linking ALL together. And that on account of that FBI nonsense.

“As we all know, Dr Bond linked five of them on Nov 10th `88, at the request of the Police."

Indeed. And he even saw ONE of them. Instant expert.

“I do see what happens when imagination runs wild.”

Indeed? Am I to understand that you are about to abandon the Jackster camp? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

“C`mon, we don`t know for sure HOW it was done in any of the cases. As I said we have the medical evidence showing us WHAT was done.”

But of course we can. Dr. Brown was able to ascertain how the knife was held by examining the cuts in Kate’s cricoid cartilage. You might have another go at his inquest testimony. Very revealing. I discover new information each time I read it—and I am into the dozens of times now.

Only dozens of times ;-)
Anyway, that was only Dr Browns opinion, albeit, an educated one. We can`t even be sure of the TOD in a number of cases, despite the Doctors opinion.

“On that basis, Tabram and Nichols are closely linked due to signs of strangulation and a stab to the privates - unlike Chapman.”
Can you direct me to the discussion of Tabram’s strangulation? I must have missed that one.

Swollen face, tongue protruding between her teeth .. Chapman or Tabram?

Chapman’s private parts were partly removed, as you recall.

So were Kelly`s bits, and Eddowes had her labia divided.

“Eddowes's killer had the same basic skills.”
Sorry, no he did not.

Wasn`t the medical consensus that the skill or anatomical knowledge shown was that a butcher or slaughterman may possess?

“No, in my opinion, four, possibly six are connected through medical evidence.”

Depends on how loosely we construe “medical evidence.”

As loosely as the Chief Police Surgeon, Dr Bond construed it.

“I didn`t realise the police thought all eleven murders were linked, other than they were unsolved murders involving women?”

Nor yet the canonical five—there were many dissenters. It is only recently that theorists have tried linking ALL together. And that on account of that FBI nonsense.

Agreed on the FBI nonsense, unless they were Victorian FBI profilers, then they might be worth listening to.
Ironically, it was these CSI programmes that alerted the Suffolk strangler to the perils of forensics and he consequently dumped his victims naked in running water. Didn`t get rid of his coat, though.

“As we all know, Dr Bond linked five of them on Nov 10th `88, at the request of the Police."

Indeed. And he even saw ONE of them. Instant expert.

Well, he saw Kelly, McKenzie, Rose Mylett and the Pinchin St torso, and discussed the post mortem notes of the others with the relevant Doctors.

“I do see what happens when imagination runs wild.”

Indeed? Am I to understand that you are about to abandon the Jackster camp? (heh-heh)

Alas, Lynn. I am in no camp.

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello Jon. Thanks.

“Only dozens of times?”

Well, . . .

“Anyway, that was only Dr Brown’s opinion, albeit, an educated one. We can`t even be sure of the TOD in a number of cases, despite the Doctor’s opinion.”

Indeed. But knife marks are less difficult to be misread.

“Swollen face, tongue protruding between her teeth. Chapman or Tabram?”

I can vouch for Chapman. Unaware of Tabram.

“Wasn`t the medical consensus that the skill or anatomical knowledge shown was that a butcher or slaughterman may possess?”

In Eddowes’ case all that I recall being attributed was a knowledge of where to find the kidney. Baxter described the mutilations as “unskillful.”

“As loosely as the Chief Police Surgeon, Dr Bond construed it.”

Ah! And how many medical examinations did he perform?

“Agreed on the FBI nonsense, unless they were Victorian FBI profilers, then they might be worth listening to.”

Splendid. There is a delightful film I watch from time to time—“Hopscotch.” In it the letters for “FBI” are explained. (heh-heh)

“Well, he saw Kelly, McKenzie, Rose Mylett and the Pinchin St torso, and discussed the post mortem notes of the others with the relevant Doctors.”

And exactly one of these was a “C5” slaying.

“Alas, Lynn. I am in no camp.”

Then permit me to help here. I could be an “Aide de camp.” (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[fodsaks]

Hi Lynn,

Wow... Interesting discussion you guys are having.

Of course, there is medical evidence linking several of the victims, but as I mentioned, one could easily use inquest reports and newspaper write-ups as a kind of 'How To Guide' to creating a Ripper murder.

Also, as you suggested in your reply Lynn, there could be genuine motives behind the killings, making them more than just pranks to whip up the public frenzy.
If you wanted someone dead and a serial killer was on the loose, what a perfect opportunity you have to deflect suspicion away form yourself.

[lynn cates]

wise words

Hello Fodsaks. Thanks.

"If you wanted someone dead and a serial killer was on the loose, what a perfect opportunity you have to deflect suspicion away form yourself."

Precisely! As has been observed elsewhere, "For one who has not lived even a single lifetime, you are a wise man, Van Helsing." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

If you wanted someone dead and a serial killer was on the loose, what a perfect opportunity you have to deflect suspicion away form yourself.

What could any one of these poor women have done to you that you would want them dead?
There is a difference between being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as opposed to being the target of a conspired plot.
You wanted her dead for all her wealth?

And which one would you choose to be the 'false' victim, and who killed all the rest?

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

What could any one of these poor women have done to you that you would want them dead?
There is a difference between being in the wrong place at the wrong time, as opposed to being the target of a conspired plot.
You wanted her dead for all her wealth?

Let's be honest Jon...without identifying precisely which, (because I have absolutely no suspect axe to grind), in at least two of the last three canonicals there are arguments that it could be a good deal more domestic than that!

Heinrich...here's your moment mate!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

conspired

Hello Jon. Plot, indeed. But why conspired? Isn't that a conversation stopping word?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

argumnets and arguments

Hello Dave. Oh, yes. Arguments and arguments.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I'll have you know I made a conscious decision to exclude you Lynn, based on not dropping you into something you weren't quite yet 100% ready for, research-wise, (you see I do have SOME conscience!)...

Alas it is not quite fully and universally developed...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

good man

Hello Dave. Thanks. You're a good man. Well sort of. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC