Once you have eliminated the impossible

[Robert St Devil]

Hello ROSELLA. i may have to change my mind about Catherine since i read the archived forum regarding thimble knocking. I thought it a bit random that she would prostitute 30 minutes after prison but I don't rightly know her ways with herself or John. I considered the thimble and its being found about her (meaning that it was probably in her hand with the buttons). Like everyone else i wondered on their possible significance. {mostly because my niece has been watching peter pan; "thimble for a kiss" } and i found thimble knocking.

My alternative prior to that was, the buttons and the thimble were meant for sewing. That, Catherine Eddowes was hawking a curbside mending service to the people strolling by or leaving clubs. That, she was trying to make the 2 or 3 pence, like how people clean your windshield for spare change. And, her touching his chest may have been a "will you?" repair a button on it.

[Rosella]

Rather a dark corner to do any sewing, even by the light of a cigarette, though she did have a cigarette case!
I'm amazed by some of the bits of flotsam and jetsam Catherine had with her in her innumerable pockets. Boot buttons, a thimble (part of her sewing kit, I suppose) a ball of hemp, one mitten, part of a pair of specs and a cheese monger's card, among the items. Jack seems to have just slashed her clothing apart, poor woman, before his fun with the mutilations. If only she'd kept on walking, on to Mile End casual ward.

[packers stem]

Rather a dark corner to do any sewing, even by the light of a cigarette, though she did have a cigarette case!
I'm amazed by some of the bits of flotsam and jetsam Catherine had with her in her innumerable pockets. Boot buttons, a thimble (part of her sewing kit, I suppose) a ball of hemp, one mitten, part of a pair of specs and a cheese monger's card, among the items. Jack seems to have just slashed her clothing apart, poor woman, before his fun with the mutilations. If only she'd kept on walking, on to Mile End casual ward.

She was heading the wrong way for Mile end Rosella

[Robert St Devil]

Taken together, her possessions create for a make-ready sewing kit with patchwork pieces of linen and etc. She uses the red mitten for sturdier work, like how she repairs her boots OR just for its red thread. She's crafty so she sews small bags out of bed ticking to hawk. This may have been how she earned some quick money which she gives to John.

After our conversation about cigarettes i started wondering about his possessions. Like, how he would have needed chalk if he was going to write on a wall. With all these buttons and thimbles and chalk and his wardrobe, it got me wondering if he sewed too, as a tailor, upholsterer or mercury-crazed mad hatter. (I've got James Kelly as one of my front runners; currently wondering if he used a violin string to strangle Rose Mylett BUT it may have just been thread).

As for sewing in the dark, well... thats where we are going to diverge, ROSELLA. I believe he poisoned these women. Catherine has farinaceous powder in her stomach just like Elizabeth. Was this from cachous? HOWEVER i also consider that he may have offered her a flask mixed with a 19th century "roophie".
I know betteR than most that poison is not this boards favorite choice. Leather Apron has to be some kind of cautious slasher/strangler. So an alternative to poison could be: he mugged her. He sees her selling her sewing services on Duke St. to the Jewish men leaving the clubs. shes back in london so she goes to this Jewish neighborhood to look for potential job housecleaning. He makes quick small talk regarding her curbside service which Lawende overhears. On e they clear, he "mugs" her. Tells her if she screams, he'll kill her. Takes her around the corner and does kill her. Or maybe she faints, making the job easier.

[Rosella]

Damn, I always get Mile End mixed up in relation to Aldgate. I need a map! Kate could still have been making her way to a pub (maybe felt a bit thirsty) and or a casual ward in that direction, however, as she seemed to be wishing to avoid Kelly. I don't believe Kate was meeting a friend by appointment.

I think you are right about the sewing, Robert. Debra A. observed that Eddowes had been noted for 'pestering' people, so Kate could well have been making small items to sell. Many of these women were handy, Annie C's crocheting skills, for example.

If Jack was a tailor of any sort though, Robert, surely his weapon of choice would have been tailor's shears or scissors? I'm still veering towards butcher/horse slaughterer as Jack's profession.

The East End diet of the poor was particularly poor at that time and I just think the stomach contents of the victims reflected that, Stride's Jack's possible grapes notwithstanding. A lot of starch; bread, potatoes, buns, a bit of fish. Surely if they had been poisoned there would have been outward signs on the bodies? God knows, Victorian doctors would have been alert to the more common poisons.

[Robert St Devil]

Damn! More salt in my sweet tea ROSELLA. I went round the corner for a late supper of carne asada at a tacqueria. Like most taco places a spanish soap opera was on the flat screen, and a guy with split personalities was strangling his sister. The restaurant is on a street where you will see women walking alone at night, mostly Mexican women. Its a good street, but it has its rowdies because of a couple of mexican cantina bars and a vacquero nite club. You can also get your fortune told too at a few shops. HAlfway thru my plate, a middle aged woman walked in. She was wearing a short blue jean skirt, an old tank top and carrying a large purse. She was pestering each table, hawking her handmade crochet bracelets. But you just knew... When i dont buy their "crafts" outside the ice house they usually turn to begging some money out of me.

So yes Catherine sews and she keeps her thimble and buttons in the pawn ticket tin. But i could also see her turning on a moments notice to begging. And also going round dark corners (but only casually).

I know that mealy foods were part of the English diet then. My contradiction is that Catherine would need to have eaten this farinaceous food/powder AFTER leaving prison since it was in her stomach, but noone ever came forward claiming to have sold her something to eat. So... either that was her last bit of (whatever food makes farinaceous powder in the stomach; also she smoked and cachous were breath fresheners for smokers) -or- LEather Apron gave it to her. The poison i speculated on was gelsenium.

But her or horse slaughterer would lead down good possibilities.

[elmore 77]

map

Rosella,there is an excellent 1893-96 google map of London

[DJA]

farinaceous powder

Better known as flour.

You really haven't done your homework.

[Robert St Devil]

Hey! It DJA! I was about to go to sleep. where you been? I havent seen you since the last time i made you comment on me. Hows the wife and kids?

Farinaceous powder is flour. No money. Where d she get it from? Elizabeth Stride had flour in her stomach too. Any connection?

[DJA]

The poison i speculated on was gelsenium.
.

Eddowes stomach contents were checked for drugs,particularly narcotics.

Nor sure if we know what she had to eat,if anything.

Mary Kelly had fish and potatoes.

Stride the cheese,potato and flour,prolly potato soup thickened with flour and cheese added....and the cachous.

[Robert St Devil]

Eddowes stomach contents were checked for drugs,particularly narcotics.

Nor sure if we know what she had to eat,if anything...

She ate flour.

[Robert St Devil]

Actually... Potato soup IS a smart answer. The brickmasons lodge?

[curious4]

Damn! More salt in my sweet tea ROSELLA. I went round the corner for a late supper of carne asada at a tacqueria. Like most taco places a spanish soap opera was on the flat screen, and a guy with split personalities was strangling his sister. The restaurant is on a street where you will see women walking alone at night, mostly Mexican women. Its a good street, but it has its rowdies because of a couple of mexican cantina bars and a vacquero nite club. You can also get your fortune told too at a few shops. HAlfway thru my plate, a middle aged woman walked in. She was wearing a short blue jean skirt, an old tank top and carrying a large purse. She was pestering each table, hawking her handmade crochet bracelets. But you just knew... When i dont buy their "crafts" outside the ice house they usually turn to begging some money out of me.

So yes Catherine sews and she keeps her thimble and buttons in the pawn ticket tin. But i could also see her turning on a moments notice to begging. And also going round dark corners (but only casually).

I know that mealy foods were part of the English diet then. My contradiction is that Catherine would need to have eaten this farinaceous food/powder AFTER leaving prison since it was in her stomach, but noone ever came forward claiming to have sold her something to eat. So... either that was her last bit of (whatever food makes farinaceous powder in the stomach; also she smoked and cachous were breath fresheners for smokers) -or- LEather Apron gave it to her. The poison i speculated on was gelsenium.

But her or horse slaughterer would lead down good possibilities.

Hello Robert

She might have scrounged a slice of bread somewhere, or even been given a cup of tea and a slice of bread at the police station. She was by all accounts a likeable woman.

Er, not quite sure how to put this, but the pieces of cloth were almost certainly "hygiene articles", disposables with wings not having been invented. But you are right about the women making things to sell. Annie Chapman, for example, made and sold crochet articles, and all of the women would have known how to knit, sew and crochet (almost certainly, anyway). Kate used to sell song sheets at one time.

Best wishes
C4

[Rosella]

Wouldn't Kate have been verging on menopause, or going through it at 46? I know that her nutrition, drinking and way of life could have unduly affected this. I know that in general Victorian girls reached puberty later than nowadays and perhaps finished a little earlier. Anyway, she wasn't wearing drawers, so how could she have er....maybe a nappy arrangement? Sorry for going off topic!!

[curious4]

Wouldn't Kate have been verging on menopause, or going through it at 46? I know that her nutrition, drinking and way of life could have unduly affected this. I know that in general Victorian girls reached puberty later than nowadays and perhaps finished a little earlier. Anyway, she wasn't wearing drawers, so how could she have er....maybe a nappy arrangement? Sorry for going off topic!!

Good point, but er, menopause doesn't happen overnight exactly - and the age range can be anything between 45 and 55 in my experience. And the rags were um "stained".

As the the poor girl having no drawers, I've always thought this was the cause of her "Bright's disease" - from getting cold and contracting UTIs.

Not sure how the rags were worn, that's interesting. I will try to find out! Probably as you say nappy arrangement, tied on.

Best wishes
C4