Once you have eliminated the impossible

[Pcdunn]

In historical times, as I have read, people tended to sleep in shorter cycles than we are used to today. They would go to sleep soon after sunset, in the era before electricity, sleep for four or five hours, then alternate that with a period of wakefulness around midnight to two or three, then go to sleep again until dawn.

It wasn't uncommon for people to pass the wakeful hours by reading, some crafting, some visiting friends for conversation, and so forth. I think it makes sense for people in cities, who may have worked a long shift, to have their supper at midnight or later. And I know I've seen a witness account saying she was coming back from visiting a friend at what we'd consider a very late hour (but given this information, may make more sense.)

[Rosella]

Elizabeth Mahoney, of 47 George Yard Buildings, is probably who you were thinking about, Gut. After being out all day on August Bank Holiday Monday she and her husband Joseph arrived home at about 1:40 am on the Tuesday. She immediately went out again to the local chandlers to get them some supper. She went down completely dark stairs at George Yard to get there. (Why they couldn't have got something from a barrow on the way home, heaven knows!)

Probably people like Frances Coles and Mary, who weren't in regular employment would go out (if they had money, obviously) and buy whatever they fancied at the time in the way of food and drink. They most likely slept at odd hours of the day and night as well.

[GUT]

Elizabeth Mahoney, of 47 George Yard Buildings, is probably who you were thinking about, Gut. After being out all day on August Bank Holiday Monday she and her husband Joseph arrived home at about 1:40 am on the Tuesday. She immediately went out again to the local chandlers to get them some supper. She went down completely dark stairs at George Yard to get there. (Why they couldn't have got something from a barrow on the way home, heaven knows!)

Probably people like Frances Coles and Mary, who weren't in regular employment would go out (if they had money, obviously) and buy whatever they fancied at the time in the way of food and drink. They most likely slept at odd hours of the day and night as well.

Yep that's the one I was thinking of.

I can imagine if any of these gals going short for a few days then getting a few p and grabbing a feed.

[jerryd]

And the McKenzie case.
"Isaac Lewis Jacobs, of Castle-place, a bootmaker, said about 20 minutes past 12 he was going to buy some supper."

McCarthy's was open till about 3:00 am, but you would think McCarthy would have mentioned seeing Kelly if she had bought her supper there that night

Hi Wickerman,

And we know where Jacobs was going to buy his supper. I know you have seen this but I will post it anyways.'

Lloyds Weekly Newspaper July 21, 1889

[GUT]

Hi GUT.

That sounds like the Tabram case.
"Elizabeth Mahony, of 47 George yard buildings, Whitechapel, the wife of a carman, stated that on the night of Bank Holiday she was out with some friends. She returned shortly before two in the morning with her husband, and afterwards left the house to try and get some supper."

Then there was the Stride case.
"On Sunday morning last about 12.45 I went from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner street."

And the McKenzie case.
"Isaac Lewis Jacobs, of Castle-place, a bootmaker, said about 20 minutes past 12 he was going to buy some supper."


McCarthy's was open till about 3:00 am, but you would think McCarthy would have mentioned seeing Kelly if she had bought her supper there that night.


OK, found the reference to Coles.
"About 1:30 on the morning of the 13th she came into the shop and asked for 1½d. worth of mutton and bread. She was served, and sat in the shop and ate it."
This place was in Wentworth Street.

I wonder if Packers Stem thinks mutton and bread is a suitable breakfast

G'day Jon

But would Kelly have risked McCarthy saying "Oh thanks for the 6p I'll put that towards your rent arrears"?

I think not.

[curious4]

American cloth

Could Astrachan man's parcel have contained a meal? Oiled cloth would have been a good choice for carrying food.

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

Could Astrachan man's parcel have contained a meal? Oiled cloth would have been a good choice for carrying food.

Best wishes
C4

It would need to be wrapped in something else first though.

[Harry D]

No, this was a quite obscure killer, who also killed his small son who, as he lay dying, asked his 'Daddy' for help. I've never forgotten that bit but have completely forgotten the creep's name.

Joseph Kallinger. I was reading about him today.

[curious4]

It would need to be wrapped in something else first though.

Newspaper? What did they use for takeaways? I know Dickens bought ham wrapped in cabbage leaves but by 1888 perhaps they had advanced to old newspapers - or something else?

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

Newspaper? What did they use for takeaways? I know Dickens bought ham wrapped in cabbage leaves but by 1888 perhaps they had advanced to old newspapers - or something else?

Best wishes
C4

I know from some of my wifey's text books that at least some places you took your own billy and they'd just put it in there.

It had an added benefit that you could then hang it over the coals if needed to keep it warm.

[curious4]

Well yes. And jellied eels were served in a cup with a spoon, both of which were handed back. But there is a long-standing tradition of newspaper with fish and chips.

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

Well yes. And jellied eels were served in a cup with a spoon, both of which were handed back. But there is a long-standing tradition of newspaper with fish and chips.

Best wishes
C4

Off Topic, but I still prefer my F&C is newspaper.

[curious4]

Me too. But apparently it's been banned since the 1980s! Health and Safety. Greaseproof paper and then newspaper seemed to be the norm, but I wonder if greaseproof paper would have been used in Mary's time. It would add to the cost and I doubt they would have worried about printer's ink. It would have dried out quite well in old newspapers anyway I should think.

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Off Topic, but I still prefer my F&C is newspaper.

Not quite. If Mr Blotchy brought a bucket of beer (seems excessive), it could have been meant to go with a meal later on.

Best wishes

C4

[packers stem]

I wonder if Packers Stem thinks mutton and bread is a suitable breakfast

Hi Wickerman
Of course mutton and bread is not a typical breakfast and all the posts confirm my own thoughts,all in the time range I'd expect between 12 and 2 after pub closing...

There were many street vendors selling coffee,bread,baked potato,pies,soup,fried fish with potato shavings(presumably like chips but more like slices) but chip shapes as we know had come into use by the time.
Many vendors set up at pub closing time as this was a busy period but by 4 am they had been replaced by others selling breakfast (pretty much coffee).
If someone finds anything suggesting that anyone bought a fish supper or mutton and bread at 6am then we have a game changer lol
In the stride case I seem to remember reading someone saw someone carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper, which in all likelihood was James Brown heading off home with his supper.I'm still not sure why a chandler shop sold food in those days but they did.
I use the fish and potatoes simply to back a time of death as being 6 or before.Nothing really unbelievable about it so not sure why everyone is now taking a view that she could have had fish for breakfast?
Of course anything is possible but why stretch credulity
The fish and potato had not digested,the likelihood is that the victim had eaten it soon before death...chances are it was bought in the small hours