Once you have eliminated the impossible

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

It's a fair question.

There are cases where 2 oddballs have met and turned in to serial killers, and even rarer I have heard of a case in the 80s I think (can't remember the details specifically) where 2 psychopaths killed together.

When I look at the murders I see a kinda personal vendetta against these women, there is something more intimate about the way the victims were killed (particularly Kelly), not something that was shared with anyone else. That seems in contrast to how the bodies were positioned as if on display after the murders I realise. I can't put my finger exactly on what it is, this sounds a bit mad but bear with me, it's like when an artist refuses to show anyone their artwork before it's finished.
That's just my thoughts on it.

I have to admit that in the past I said that the ripper may have had a female accomplice, but I wouldn't have thought that the accomplice actively took part in the murders/mutilation, rather that they were used as a way to gain confidence.

I dunno really, I'm just going on how I see it TBH

I used to see it the same way, like it was a very private moment. I don't know why I don't anymore. And yet if the Hillside Stranglers could rape and murder in front of each other, maybe intimacy between serial killers needs a new definition? But I get what you are saying. And I have feelings like that that makes a pair seem unlikely. It jut solves some persistent problems if it was a duo.

[Rosella]

Surely a single male who had complete contempt for women in his area who were out late at night, women whom he would have regarded as prostitutes, whether they were or not, would have a personal vendetta against these females?

I remember reading a case years ago (sorry, can't remember his name) in which a serial killer gave a vivid account of the excitement, the personal thrill of being with a person who was dying by his hand, (he spoke of it as being indescribable) and the sense of exultation and then peace after it, that in a sense these people were now his.

Surely that would be akin to a very personal intimacy in the JTR killings, even if he didn't know these women personally? He maybe got that sense of peace and satisfaction that he had done what he had to do, in his own mind.

He would be less likely in my mind to want to share those feelings with a partner, or even wish for someone else to experience what he was feeling. I just don't get the feeling that Jack wanted or needed anyone else to help him murder. I think that this was a killer who believed that he alone had the power of life and death over others.

[Wickerman]

If Mary had fish and potatoes for breakfast, where did she buy them? And wouldn't she have been seen?

Best wishes
C4

There was a late-night or over-night eatery in Thrawl St. There were also hot food & drink stalls over-night in Whitechapel High Street.
Although we make reference to Kelly eating Fish and Chips (a bit tongue in cheek), that is probably too grand for what she likely had. I expect it was more like boiled fish and a baked potato.

[Fisherman]

I remember reading a case years ago (sorry, can't remember his name) in which a serial killer gave a vivid account of the excitement, the personal thrill of being with a person who was dying by his hand, (he spoke of it as being indescribable) and the sense of exultation and then peace after it, that in a sense these people were now his.

Ted Bundy? He said something along those lines.

[curious4]

Hello Wickerman

Am I imagining things, or were there baked potato sellers along the lines of hot chestnut sellers?

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Ome killer, one helper

I lean more towards one killer and one reluctant helper. The mutilations became worse and worse as the killings progressed and possibly as his mental state deteriorated. A "helper" could have been a servant who faced being sacked "without a character", that is without references, which would prevent him from ever working again. Or perhaps someone who was being blackmailed into helping, or even someone who felt that they "owed" the killer, maybe a soldier whose life had been saved by Jack.

Speculation warning! This is all conjecture!

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/371898881702072220/

Not imagining things, this should be a picture of the hot potato man
:-)

C4

[Rosella]

Ted Bundy? He said something along those lines.

No, this was a quite obscure killer, who also killed his small son who, as he lay dying, asked his 'Daddy' for help. I've never forgotten that bit but have completely forgotten the creep's name.

[Dane_F]

Very interesting thread. While I probably lean more towards a lone killer, I can't say the possibility of two people working together is impossible.

Emma Smith was accosted in her own words by a "group" of men. It has been suggested before this is where Jack got his start. Possibly so.

However, What really makes me believe there is a chance of multiple people working together are the Torso murders. There are some very close similarities especially between Mary Kelly and some of the torsos. I'd argue she possibly matches more of the features of a torso killing than a ripper style.

Some things like the mutilations, and especially cutting into the genitals while in such close proximity to the other murders and in a similar time frame just makes it feel like there has to be some connection between them.

There are however differences between the torso murders and JTR. Possibly the "alpha" of the two killers was the Torso murderer who after the two split up changed his style more towards the torso murders. Or perhaps he all along leaned more towards the torso style killings but for a brief time worked together with someone else in the Ripper killings while some of his traits such as mutilations and cutting genitals still bled through.

Mutual hatred of prostitues? Perhaps a Dr and Patient?

I think this could explain how there are some undeniable similarities and yet also some pretty big differences between the two.

[Errata]

Surely a single male who had complete contempt for women in his area who were out late at night, women whom he would have regarded as prostitutes, whether they were or not, would have a personal vendetta against these females?

I remember reading a case years ago (sorry, can't remember his name) in which a serial killer gave a vivid account of the excitement, the personal thrill of being with a person who was dying by his hand, (he spoke of it as being indescribable) and the sense of exultation and then peace after it, that in a sense these people were now his.

Surely that would be akin to a very personal intimacy in the JTR killings, even if he didn't know these women personally? He maybe got that sense of peace and satisfaction that he had done what he had to do, in his own mind.

He would be less likely in my mind to want to share those feelings with a partner, or even wish for someone else to experience what he was feeling. I just don't get the feeling that Jack wanted or needed anyone else to help him murder. I think that this was a killer who believed that he alone had the power of life and death over others.

It's not an uncommon feeling doe serial killers to have. Especially power/excitation rapists and sadists. It's actually a sentiment expressed by a lot of serial killers. But there are others. Dahmer's wants were a little different. Gein's clearly were a lot different. Son of Sam was different.

But even the sentiment you describe does not lend itself only to vendetta or personal hatred. It usually doesn't really. What if there is a guy, who in his "expert medical opinion" (which we all have despite our total lack of qualifications like the vaccine people or the wacky diet people) thinks that he can see what makes women so appealing if he can just cut open the uterus and poke around for a minute. Which is crazy, but doesn't make him act like a cray person other than the big glaring serial killing part.

And this guy existed at one point. So it's not totally made up.

What is his motive? What does he feel, what does he get out of it? Does he feel the power and the exultation? And if he does, is that his motive, or is his weird little delusion his motive? Does either make him contemptuous or vengeful?

It's a snarl. Trying to figure out what got him in the alley to what made him happy to what kept him coming back. And some things point down blind alleys. But his state of mind can't be proven. Or even logicked out, certainly not by me, I've tried. But it does nothing to pick apart one specific theory. That there were two partners. I feel like step 1 is to challenge the facts. the next step is to challenge the motives.

[Wickerman]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/371898881702072220/

Not imagining things, this should be a picture of the hot potato man
:-)

C4

Good job, nice example.
Yes, there are various accounts of the night life on Whitechapel High Street, it wasn't the deserted place we are led to believe.

Going on memory here but didn't Coles visit a late night cafe for some boiled beef, or something like that?
If Kelly was really broke when she met Hutchinson, I suspect the fee from her liaison with Astrachan was what she used to get her fish & potato supper.

I know, some don't believe Hutchinson, some don't believe Astrachan existed, some don't believe Kennedy that Kelly went out again.
All bias aside if we just accept statements as they are given half the problems disappear.

[curious4]

Good job, nice example.
Yes, there are various accounts of the night life on Whitechapel High Street, it wasn't the deserted place we are led to believe.

Going on memory here but didn't Coles visit a late night cafe for some boiled beef, or something like that?
If Kelly was really broke when she met Hutchinson, I suspect the fee from her liaison with Astrachan was what she used to get her fish & potato supper.

I know, some don't believe Hutchinson, some don't believe Astrachan existed, some don't believe Kennedy that Kelly went out again.
All bias aside if we just accept statements as they are given half the problems disappear.

Hello Wickerman

I do believe Hutchinson. Always have. And even more so since a witness in the Anna Lindh (Swedish Foreign minister) case was dismissed as being too detailed but proved to be correct. Some people just are good witnesses. I wouldn't be - have been known to walk past my middle son on the street. And attach myself to the wrong pair of legs in the supermarket, my children all being tall and myself quite small :-).

Not sure about Coles but I think you are right. Will have to look it up.

Best wishes
C4

[GUT]

Good job, nice example.
Yes, there are various accounts of the night life on Whitechapel High Street, it wasn't the deserted place we are led to believe.

Going on memory here but didn't Coles visit a late night cafe for some boiled beef, or something like that?
If Kelly was really broke when she met Hutchinson, I suspect the fee from her liaison with Astrachan was what she used to get her fish & potato supper.

I know, some don't believe Hutchinson, some don't believe Astrachan existed, some don't believe Kennedy that Kelly went out again.
All bias aside if we just accept statements as they are given half the problems disappear.

And another witness reports wandering out at 2:00 am (if memory serves me) to get hubby some supper.

[Wickerman]

Hi GUT.

That sounds like the Tabram case.
"Elizabeth Mahony, of 47 George yard buildings, Whitechapel, the wife of a carman, stated that on the night of Bank Holiday she was out with some friends. She returned shortly before two in the morning with her husband, and afterwards left the house to try and get some supper."

Then there was the Stride case.
"On Sunday morning last about 12.45 I went from my own house to get some supper from a chandler's shop at the corner of Berner street."

And the McKenzie case.
"Isaac Lewis Jacobs, of Castle-place, a bootmaker, said about 20 minutes past 12 he was going to buy some supper."


McCarthy's was open till about 3:00 am, but you would think McCarthy would have mentioned seeing Kelly if she had bought her supper there that night.


OK, found the reference to Coles.
"About 1:30 on the morning of the 13th she came into the shop and asked for 1½d. worth of mutton and bread. She was served, and sat in the shop and ate it."
This place was in Wentworth Street.

I wonder if Packers Stem thinks mutton and bread is a suitable breakfast

[GUT]

It was Tabram I was thinking of.