Why those particular victims?

[Tom_Wescott]

Interesting stuff. Tom, what's the title of your book - I don't think I've read it.

Thanks for asking. It's The Bank Holiday Murders: The True Story of the First Whitechapel Murders. It's not a terribly big book, so there should be plenty of room for it beneath that rock you've been living under since February. You can get it at Amazon.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Bridewell]

Interesting stuff. Tom, what's the title of your book - I don't think I've read it.

[Tom_Wescott]

I know it's been posted somewhere around here before but after looking for it and not finding it I just want to ask,

didn't all or most of the canonical five at one time or another live on the same street? What street was that?

Of course then it stands to reason the murderer might've lived on that street at one time and knew them, or went to the same pub or dos house they did r/t the vicinity.

I'm sure that's been looked at, but what questions does that raise?

The other thing I've been thinking of lately, is, regarding motive, was it anger? Or just some morbid desire to carve up women, which I'm sure is a horse beaten to death by regulars but it sure makes one wonder.

Hi Beo, back in the 70s Stephen Knight argued unconvincingly that all the women knew each other and were specifically targeted for murder to shut them up. Pretty fantastical. More recently I wrote a book following a completely different line of thinking but based on factual evidence that shows a number of connections exist - particularly through the person of Pearly Poll - that may or may not have bearing upon the identity of the murderer(s). For instance, the earliest victims (Emily Horsnell, Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, and survivor Margaret Hames) all lived at 18 and 19 George Street. Pearly Poll moves from there to 35 Dorset Street and within a few weeks Polly Nichols and Annie Chapman (both residents) are murdered.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[RockySullivan]

Reading leather apron, fascinating book! The author suggests that the killing sites were chosen beforehand which is very insightful. The book is more logical than most contemporary ones in my opinion. Anyway I'm wondering of the ripper could have been a mugger, a thief? Could explain a knife, him being so good at getting away. I wonder if there are any reports of robberies at the murder sites or if any victims had been mugged before their deaths? Could the ripper have maybe not been a john but mugged the girls? Doesn't explain the knowledge of the organs and speed with which they were excised though.

[Beowulf]

Well there were lots of stories from women interviewed by reporters who claimed they were approached by strange men who wanted to take them down dark alleyways or who spoke to them in the street or behaved strangely. They were probably just the tip of the iceberg! Who knows whether Jack approached other women and then, for one reason or another, 'suspended operations'.

I can't remember where I read it (it was years ago) but a one-armed prostitute was apparently rescued by a passing police officer when she screamed. She was with a client down an alley and became alarmed at his behaviour.

She went homeward bound with the policeman but didn't mention for several minutes that he'd produced a knife. The policeman ran back but the man had gone. Now, if that story was true I don't believe that the client was JTR.

Nevertheless, you have to wonder how many unstable and threatening men there were about in the East End at the time of the murders.

Lol. Yes! Money being scarce and off you go into a dark alley with a few coins in your pocket to exchange sex for coins. I've always wondered about that. It's kind of the honor system, since there are no receipts or cash registers.

Why would they get paid? Why wouldn't you expect to be robbed, after the encounter? Or before?

And then there is leather apron. He likely wasn't the only one in town working that game.

Wonder if Jack removed the coins after he stopped their breathing and before he made a holy mess of them.

[GUT]

I've just looked her up. I must have read it in one of Paul Begg's books. Her name was Elizabeth Burns alias 'One-Arm Liz', and she lived at 55 Flower and Dean, the same abode as Eddowes.

She was threatened by a man called Charles Ludwig, (so he must have been tracked down) who, if my memory serves me, was approached by policemen afterwards on the street and would be jokingly asked if he'd taken anybody down any alleyways lately, whereupon he'd scarper off.

I hadn't picked up that she was one armed, I must have read about her somewhere else, as Charles Ludwig I was aware of just goes to show.

[Rosella]

I've just looked her up. I must have read it in one of Paul Begg's books. Her name was Elizabeth Burns alias 'One-Arm Liz', and she lived at 55 Flower and Dean, the same abode as Eddowes.

She was threatened by a man called Charles Ludwig, (so he must have been tracked down) who, if my memory serves me, was approached by policemen afterwards on the street and would be jokingly asked if he'd taken anybody down any alleyways lately, whereupon he'd scarper off.

[GUT]

G'day Rosella

Now, if that story was true I don't believe that the client was JTR.

I have doubts about the story.

But if true why do you not believe it was Jack.

[Rosella]

Well there were lots of stories from women interviewed by reporters who claimed they were approached by strange men who wanted to take them down dark alleyways or who spoke to them in the street or behaved strangely. They were probably just the tip of the iceberg! Who knows whether Jack approached other women and then, for one reason or another, 'suspended operations'.

I can't remember where I read it (it was years ago) but a one-armed prostitute was apparently rescued by a passing police officer when she screamed. She was with a client down an alley and became alarmed at his behaviour.

She went homeward bound with the policeman but didn't mention for several minutes that he'd produced a knife. The policeman ran back but the man had gone. Now, if that story was true I don't believe that the client was JTR.

Nevertheless, you have to wonder how many unstable and threatening men there were about in the East End at the time of the murders.

[Harriet the Student]

Could our killer have had other victims who managed to escape him or could someone have disturbed him before he was able to launch his attack.

A potential Ripper attack survivor would no doubt have been splashed all over the newspapers, given that journalists interviewed anyone and everyone who was even vaguely connected with the murders - worth checking out I think.

[pinkmoon]

I think all of the victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time I've never believed in any of the theories about them knowing each other or been specially targeted by our killer .Could our killer have had other victims who managed to escape him or could someone have disturbed him before he was able to launch his attack.

[GUT]

I know it's been posted somewhere around here before but after looking for it and not finding it I just want to ask,

didn't all or most of the canonical five at one time or another live on the same street? What street was that?

Of course then it stands to reason the murderer might've lived on that street at one time and knew them, or went to the same pub or dos house they did r/t the vicinity.

I'm sure that's been looked at, but what questions does that raise?

If they all did it was Dorset Street.

[Beowulf]

I know it's been posted somewhere around here before but after looking for it and not finding it I just want to ask,

didn't all or most of the canonical five at one time or another live on the same street? What street was that?

Of course then it stands to reason the murderer might've lived on that street at one time and knew them, or went to the same pub or dos house they did r/t the vicinity.

I'm sure that's been looked at, but what questions does that raise?

The other thing I've been thinking of lately, is, regarding motive, was it anger? Or just some morbid desire to carve up women, which I'm sure is a horse beaten to death by regulars but it sure makes one wonder.

[Rosella]

It wasn't the first time that these women had broken up with their partners though. How do we know that relationships characterised by squabbles, drunken and otherwise, reconciliations, moving away from each other then back in, wasn't typical of the sort of poor people who lived in the lodging houses and deep poverty of the East End?

[RockySullivan]

2 Canonical victims were known to have been less than 100% health wise, and they were out soliciting when someone posing as a potential client meets up with them,....stranger to stranger kill...random...based on who was out, whether they might put up much of a fight, and how desperate they were to earn money that night.

Liz Stride left her lodging house with enough doss for her bed, stated she didn't know when she would be back and left items for safe keeping with a lodgemate,.... and wasn't drunk when she died....Kate goes in the opposite direction of where John would be so she has no idea whether he already had money for their bed that night, and Mary is sleeping in her own room.

Liz Stride just broke up with Kidney that same week....Kate and John seem to be less close than is represented by Johns comments...and Mary kicked out her live in lover at the end of October. Mary is also seeing another "Joe" at the time.

Circumstantially, the jilted lovers, or jealous lovers, or new lovers, would be the first place to look in those murders. Have Kidney, Kelly or Barnett been proven to have been incapable or unable to kill the respective women? Do we know who Marys other Joe was? Do we know who Kate met outside Mitre Square? No. Do we know if Liz was meeting someone socially at the club? No.

What we do know is that there is no hard evidence that compels us to assume that they were homeless that night, or soliciting on the streets. The 2 foundation points of the first 2 murders.

Cheers

It's interesting that Kelly and Stride had broken up recently before their murders. I wonder if the killer knew Kidney and it's a reason he took eddowes.