What influenced the Ripper?

[Geddy2112]

Hi Ian,

I agree that anybody who would cut open a human woman and pull and/or cut out one or more organs it would look like that. But that's not the question here. The way I look at it, RD's question lies before that: why would anybody want to open up a female body? Why would anybody want to cut and pull out slippery organs?

Indeed curiosity killed the cat etc. It's like a lot of questions we ask here, there is no right or wrong answer and a lot of maybes or maybe nots. We are sometimes told that pornography makes someone with a certain mindset go out and commit rape so yes I assume by that analogy seeing a wax work of a human body opened up might 'inspire' the viewer to see for themselves in the flesh so to speak.

The closest we got at school unless you followed the biology route in higher education was cutting open a rat and sitting there astonished at how long it's small intestine was. I've not heard anyone in my year group went on to do this to a human though. Nevertheless the practice has been shelved.

Also to add my apologies to The Rookie Detective my intention is not to cause arguments...

[Patrick Differ]

Some of the Pro-Lechmere theorists claim he was influenced by the Wax works of the anatomical Venus that was on display in the West End.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...d-he-have-paid

Thats interesting. There seems to be alot more sources to educate the Ripper then one might imagine.

[The Rookie Detective]

Hi Ian,

I agree that anybody who would cut open a human woman and pull and/or cut out one or more organs it would look like that. But that's not the question here. The way I look at it, RD's question lies before that: why would anybody want to open up a female body? Why would anybody want to cut and pull out slippery organs?

If he hated women so much, he could have just strangled them, stabbed or bludgeoned them to death or just have cut her throat (or any combination of that) and have left them like that. Seeing that he committed his first and most murders out in the streets, that would have been much less risky than sticking around to lay her down, work up her skirts, open up their abdomen, andsoforth. So, it's a very fair thing to wonder what sparked his interest in cutting his victims' abdomen up, etc.. and the idea of these anatomical wax models as an answer is a good one. Of course, we have no way of knowing if it's the right answer, but it's a good one nevertheless.

Cheers,
Frank

Precisely my point and one of the best posts I've read on these boards for a very long time.

[Doctored Whatsit]

The concept that JtR's blood lust might have been inspired by anatomical wax models was suggested by Christer Holmgren in "Cutting Point", but whether he was or wasn't is unknown and unknowable. What is known is that JtR possessed considerable knife skills, and used a knife with a 6-8 inch blade quickly and efficiently. He knew how to kill swiftly and silently, how to remove innards with one sweep of the knife, and how to avoid getting much blood on his person. This was therefore not an otherwise ordinary man turned on to evil by the sight of an opened up wax torso. A person with the necessary skills might have been a butcher/slaughterer or a demented physician for example, and he would have had experience of cutting up bodies anyway, and wouldn't have needed such inspiration.

For the wax models to be a relevant inspiration we need to think what type of person is likely to have the considerable specific skills mentioned above without having cut up a body already, and I think that is unlikely. Of course, the wax models could have been the original inspiration, and as a result JtR became a physician or a butcher.

[FrankO]

The concept that JtR's blood lust might have been inspired by anatomical wax models was suggested by Christer Holmgren in "Cutting Point", but whether he was or wasn't is unknown and unknowable. What is known is that JtR possessed considerable knife skills, and used a knife with a 6-8 inch blade quickly and efficiently. He knew how to kill swiftly and silently, how to remove innards with one sweep of the knife, and how to avoid getting much blood on his person. This was therefore not an otherwise ordinary man turned on to evil by the sight of an opened up wax torso. A person with the necessary skills might have been a butcher/slaughterer or a demented physician for example, and he would have had experience of cutting up bodies anyway, and wouldn't have needed such inspiration.

For the wax models to be a relevant inspiration we need to think what type of person is likely to have the considerable specific skills mentioned above without having cut up a body already, and I think that is unlikely. Of course, the wax models could have been the original inspiration, and as a result JtR became a physician or a butcher.

Hi DW,

Based on your reply, I think I haven't expressed myself the best I could. What I wrote suggested that the wax models sparked the Ripper's interest in cutting his victims' abdomen up, etc., but your post actually made me realize that that's not really how I see it. I think that, for whatever reason, he already had an interest in cutting up female bodies (long) before he started doing it. That might have drawn him to becoming a butcher or even a surgeon or any profession where he could use his knife cutting into flesh. The wax models may just have fine-tuned his fantasy or added something to it.

Cheers,
Frank

[Doctored Whatsit]

Hi DW,

Based on your reply, I think I haven't expressed myself the best I could. What I wrote suggested that the wax models sparked the Ripper's interest in cutting his victims' abdomen up, etc., but your post actually made me realize that that's not really how I see it. I think that, for whatever reason, he already had an interest in cutting up female bodies (long) before he started doing it. That might have drawn him to becoming a butcher or even a surgeon or any profession where he could use his knife cutting into flesh. The wax models may just have fine-tuned his fantasy or added something to it.

Cheers,
Frank

Yes, I think we agree. The wax models may or may not have been an inspiration for JtR, we cannot know, but if they were, the fascination for them may have directed him to some occupation which involved cutting up bodies, so that by the time he became the Whitechapel murderer he was highly skilled with the use of a large sharp knife, and the possessor of a fair degree of anatomical knowledge. Or possibly, as say, a butcher/slaughterer he could have seen the models and then become intrigued by the human body. Unless I am mistaken, all or at least most of the wax models I have seen appear to have been female, and therefore perhaps more tempting to a twisted mind. Is this significant possibly?

I have neglected to add a hunter to the list of potential suspects, as such a person who hunted, killed and then cut up the bodies and prepared the meat for cooking, might also develop similar skills - but I regard this as less likely.

[kjab3112]

The anatomical models tended to be female due to the need to teach obstetrics. The irony is that one of the pieces of evidence against Kahn was that he allowed women to enter! I wonder if anyone knows whether eastern Germany, modern Poland etc still had similar exhibitions into the 1880s given the large number of Germans and Russian empire Jews in the area who may have seen and been inspired to display their work in a similar way?

[Mike J. G.]

I think Whittington Egan touched upon this in a couple of his Ripper and non-Ripper related works, but Liverpool also had its own museum of anatomy...

"The Liverpool Museum of Anatomy 29 Paradise Street, opened 1858, replacing Woodhead's Parisian Gallery of Anatomy, Lime St. Closed 1938 and became the temporary HQ of the Balloon Barrage Unit, Auxiliary Air Force Unit.
The exhibition was sold to Louis Tussauds waxworks in Blackpool, and remained there until at least the 1960's.
Before the internet existed how did people learn about anatomy and physiology, especially the sexy bits? Books on reproductive anatomy, including cheap, illustrated texts aimed at the working classes, had been available since the dawn of printing, but a more visceral and entertaining experience could be found in displays of hyper-realistic wax models. These originated as teaching tools in museums and medical schools during the early 18th century, and by the Victorian Era had made their way to the general public via private "museums" such as the Liverpool Museum of Anatomy, whose intriguing guidebook we recently acquired.
The Liverpool Museum was one of many similar institutions in Europe and North America that, unlike the exhibits of professional medical organisations, were open to the public and presented in a way that was friendly to middle and working class people without medical training. Though they advertised themselves as educational venues, particularly regarding reproduction and the dangers of sexual vice, these museums also traded on the shock or titillation value of their exhibits, and some were targeted by the medical establishment as purveyors of vice and quackery."

https://www.facebook.com/groups/billysliverpoolofyesterday/posts/1816025325919871/

As I've mentioned before, it's my personal opinion that the murderer was probably exposed to viscera at an impressionable age, and discovered that he enjoyed it, along the same lines as people like Gein and Dahmer. It's possible that they then sought out any jobs which allowed them to be near such things, but then again, Dahmer didn't, so it's not definite.

Like Dahmer, Francois Bertrand began dissecting dead animals at an early age, then when he got older he began exhuming corpses. I wouldn't be surprised if our man tried the odd exhumation of bodies.

Both Dahmer and Gein were obviously left to their own devices and so they could indulge their perversions somewhat safely, so I wouldn't be surprised if our man was similarly able to indulge by themselves, meaning I'm not sure they were married or living with family at the time.

I know I'm not offering anything groundbreaking here, it's all been gone over before in better detail than I could muster, but when we see all of the reasoning given by authors over the years as to why Jack did what he did, from political agendas to black magic, cult activities, religious mania and royal conspiracies, I can never look at it in such a romanticised way, myself.

For me, "Jack" was only ever serving himself and his own depravity which he probably never even understood but had to give in to. I don't think he was particularly interested in killing at all, just interested in having a body to play with. IMO he probably began with animals and progressed to corpses, but did he begin by obtaining his own corpses or did he have access to some? Did his ability to access corpses come to an abrupt end and so he had to create his own? Or did he discover that the fresher they were, the better? Buggered if I know, but it's always intrigued me.

We always tend to look at Jack through the lense of the modern serial killer, when IMO he was probably more along the lines of a ghoul, like Bertrand and Gein.

Just my personal opinions, anyway, and like I said, nothing new or unique.

[FrankO]

Precisely my point and one of the best posts I've read on these boards for a very long time.

Thanks, RD!

[Abby Normal]

Hello all.


Was the Ripper influenced by anatomical wax models?

In the late 18th century (1780 - 1790) there were lifelike wax models that were made and presented to the public, in various places including Bologna and Florence (including others)

These wax models were a combination of artistic beauty combined with anatomical accuracy; whereby parts of the models could be opened up, dissected and removed to reveal the inner workings of the human form.

The models drew a lot of attention and curiosity, and were seen as revolutionary to the medical world, as well as intriguing to the general public who could view the various models laying in state.

It could be argued that the models closely resemble the manner in which the Ripper displayed and presented some of his victims around a century later.

Could these models have influenced the mind of the Ripper?

Perhaps

But we need something closer to home, something tangible.

Wax models from a century before the murders seems too far removed.

However, there was a man who brought the idea of those wax models into the forefront of thinking in London and whose work had an influence and direct impact on the medical world of the Victorian era, and an influence that is still felt to this day.

A man named Joseph Towne

Joseph Towne was a sculptor and anatomical modeller.

Born on 25th November 1806 in Royston, and son of Reverend Thomas Towne who himself was a director of the London Missionary society.
Joseph developed an interest in the field of anatomical modelling from a young age, and in 1825 at the age of 18, Joseph had built a full model of a skeleton that he took to a professor of anatomy.
The reception he received was so positive that he then took the Skeleton to London to enter into a competition.
He was introduced to a surgeon at Guys Hospital in London, who had seen the Skeleton and analysed it for its anatomical accuracy. The surgeon was so impressed that within a short space of time, Joseph was offered a job as the anatomical modeller for the medical school situated at Guys hospital.

Long story short...

Joseph Towne remained as the anatomical modeller and sculptor at Guys Hospital for 53 years.

He died on the 25th June 1879.

Interestingly, he remained loyal to Guys Hospital and refused to work for any of the other London Hospitals who had requested his services.

In his 53 years at Guys, Joseph Towne had produced countless numbers of wax models and sculptors to aid the medical school and the various doctors and surgeons who used his models directly for training purposes.

So how does this all relate to the Ripper?

Well, we can be sure that Joseph himself wasn't the Ripper as he died in 1879.

We can also be sure that Joseph's son and namesake Joseph, was also not the Ripper. Joseph (junior) was a medical/surgical student who died of consumption aged just 21 years old.

Going back to Joseph Towne (senior) ;the work he did on creating lifelike and macabre representations of various illnesses and diseases, is arguably something that would have influenced the scores of surgeons and doctors who had used his models to learn and test their own skills and abilities.

Joseph had used the earlier "anatomical venuses" as his inspiration to create his own lifelike wax models. But the key difference being that Joseph's work was devoid of any interest in making his models look beautiful or artistic. Instead, Joseph opted for realism over art, and some of his models were particularly grotesque. This was done deliberately for the benefit of those using his models for training purposes.

Above all, his models were seen as emotive.

And that's perhaps the most relevant point here.

When we look at some of Joseph's wax modelling work, we can perhaps see how an Impressionable medical and/or surgical student could be influenced by it and use it as a means to not only learn about anatomy, but to use that knowledge and apply it in real terms by choosing to murder and mutilate women on the street.

In summary, when we combine the original anatomical venuses from the 1780's and 1790's and then combine those with the work of Joseph Towne, who then went on to make wax models that were then used directly by surgeons and doctors who were training at Guys hospital, then we can see a potential link between the wax models and the way in which they may just have been the initial spark that drove the Ripper to kill.

I would consider taking a closer look at any and every surgeon and doctor that had trained at Guys. We can be certain that they would have all used Joseph's models to gain anatomical knowledge.

I believe that IF the Ripper was a surgeon or doctor, then he did indeed train at Guys hospital, and then used Joseph's models (who himself had been influenced by the anatomical venuses) to learn his trade.
But more probably; a failed surgeon or someone who failed to complete their training.

What's interesting to add is that Joseph's wax models survive to this day and are still used for training purposes. They can still be found at the museum at Guys Hospital.
Joseph's wax models were the gold standard of the time and have stood the test of time; a testament to Joseph's skills as an anatomical modeller and sculptor.

But it's not only Joseph's work that still exists; the anatomical venuses that inspired Joseph himself, also still exist, and can be found in a public museum in Italy.

Is Joseph Towne's life work the link between the anatomical venuses and the man who went on to become the Ripper?

Take a look for yourself.

hi rd
i think first and foremost tje ripper was inspired by his sick fantasy of what his knife could do to the female body. influenced by tje anatomical wax museums? maybe. its a good question and one looking more into.