Facial Mutilations

[Debra A]

Yes we know that the bodies should not have been tampered with, but needs must when the devil calls, we were not there. If all that were there was a mortuary keeper like Robert Mann then anything is possible and a police officer stood outside. If you read up about the Anatomy Act you will see that yes, there were supposed to be regulations and records but it appears a lot of this fell by the wayside despite there being appointed Inspectors to monitor and enforce the regulations.

Do you not think it strange that the only two victims who had organs removed both had their abdomens ripped open to the degree that it would be easy to access the organs inside. All the other victims injuries were not as severe so it would have been almost impossible to remove organs from them without it being noticed.

Also we have those same two victims being taken to two different mortuaries. We know that every day there were medical personnel seeking out not only organs but bodies as well at the mortuaries.

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But, Trevor, I was asking specifically about your previous post where you suggest a medical man may have 'lawfully' taken the organs and asking if it 'lawful' to take them from a murder victim awaiting post mortem examination? You went on to suggest it may be the reason medical skill was shown in removal of some of the organs. Surely that is just about the most 'unlawful', (not to mention risky to the point of being moronic) , thing a medic at a mortuary could do?!

The situation you are describing in this post is the scenario of a lowly, medically untrained mortuary attendant like Mann doing it.
Those are two different situations.

[Jon Guy]

I am sorry I dont

He wasn`t a Robert Mann type at all.

I don`t have my notes to hand but he was John Davis, and he and his wife lived next door to the mortuary. He was an old guy, who`d been there for years (possibly decades) - I think he is in the census for 1891.

But Robert Mann, he wasn`t (no disrespect to Mr Mann)
Even in Mann`s case, wasn`t there a Mr Edmunds who supervised him ?

I used to think Mr Edmunds was a corruption of Mr Mann, but Debs found a Mr Edmunds who had something to do with the Board of Guardians.

So, it wasn`t quite a case of tumbleweed rolling around these mortuaries.

[Harry D]

Hello Harry. Thanks.

What of Dr. Brown? My remarks are SOLELY about cutting skills.

Cheers.
LC

Low lighting, layers of clothing, time constraints. That's why the cutting was arguably messier than before. Next.

[Trevor Marriott]

But, Trevor, I was asking specifically about your previous post where you suggest a medical man may have 'lawfully' taken the organs and asking if it 'lawful' to take them from a murder victim awaiting post mortem examination? You went on to suggest it may be the reason medical skill was shown in removal of some of the organs. Surely that is just about the most 'unlawful', (not to mention risky to the point of being moronic) , thing a medic at a mortuary could do?!

The situation you are describing in this post is the scenario of a lowly, medically untrained mortuary attendant like Mann doing it.
Those are two different situations.

We are at cross purposes medical men were lawfully entitled to acquire organs from mortuaries via payment or otherwise. So if the opportunity arose for one to acquire organs without going through the proper procedure why would someone not take it. To someone wanting organs a dead body is a dead body and needs must if the devil calls.

We dont know what control there was at mortuaries. It would have only taken a few minutes to remove those organs at the mortuary. After all everyone would have known that the post mortems had not been carried out, and so when the doctors did the post mortems and they found the organs missing the killer would get the blame.

I did tell you that the bodies of murder victims should not have been tampered with but if people were coming and going as i suggested who knows what could have happened

I am not suggesting the likes of Mann or any other mortuary attendant would be responsible for removing organs that is not an option in my book they would have no knowledge. But the offer or money might have made them turn a blind eye, or they were simply not aware of what was going on. After all there were other bodies both in and out of the mortuary besides the murder victims and life in the mortuary didn't stop just because one of the bodies was a murder victim.

If you take the case of Chapman she was left outside of the mortuary for some considerable time who know what could have happened at that mortuary in that time and again almost 12 hours before the post mortem was carried out

All the pieces of the jigsaw certainly come together do you not think ?

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[Trevor Marriott]

He wasn`t a Robert Mann type at all.

I don`t have my notes to hand but he was John Davis, and he and his wife lived next door to the mortuary. He was an old guy, who`d been there for years (possibly decades) - I think he is in the census for 1891.

But Robert Mann, he wasn`t (no disrespect to Mr Mann)
Even in Mann`s case, wasn`t there a Mr Edmunds who supervised him ?

I used to think Mr Edmunds was a corruption of Mr Mann, but Debs found a Mr Edmunds who had something to do with the Board of Guardians.

So, it wasn`t quite a case of tumbleweed rolling around these mortuaries.

Its all very well saying Mann was supervised but was that supervision taking place every minute of the day? The answer is you dont know, and nor do I, so why mention it. Its all very well people saying this is what was supposed to happened but the point is that we simply dont know.

There is a much stronger case to suggest the organs were removed at the mortuary between those 12 hour periods than in a 5 minute window in Mitre square in the dark, from a blood filled abdomen with a long bladed knife

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[Jon Guy]

If you take the case of Chapman she was left outside of the mortuary for some considerable time who know what could have happened at that mortuary in that time and again almost 12 hours before the post mortem was carried out

No, she wasn`t Trevor. The p.m. was carried out at 14hrs that day, and until then she was locked in the mortuary shed (the police had the key) and PC Barnes was outside.

[Debra A]

We are at cross purposes medical men were lawfully entitled to acquire organs from mortuaries via payment or otherwise. So if the opportunity arose for one to acquire organs without going through the proper procedure why would someone not take it. To someone wanting organs a dead body is a dead body and needs must if the devil calls.

We dont know what control there was at mortuaries. It would have only taken a few minutes to remove those organs at the mortuary. After all everyone would have known that the post mortems had not been carried out, and so when the doctors did the post mortems and they found the organs missing the killer would get the blame.

I did tell you that the bodies of murder victims should not have been tampered with but if people were coming and going as i suggested who knows what could have happened

I am not suggesting the likes of Mann or any other mortuary attendant would be responsible for removing organs that is not an option in my book they would have no knowledge. But the offer or money might have made them turn a blind eye, or they were simply not aware of what was going on. After all there were other bodies both in and out of the mortuary besides the murder victims and life in the mortuary didn't stop just because one of the bodies was a murder victim.

If you take the case of Chapman she was left outside of the mortuary for some considerable time who know what could have happened at that mortuary in that time and again almost 12 hours before the post mortem was carried out

All the pieces of the jigsaw certainly come together do you not think ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Thanks for clarifying , Trevor.
I don't think any medical man would have a leg to stand on in court claiming his removal of organs from a murder victim pre-post mortem was 'lawful', if caught, do you? I can't see anyone risking his career to do that myself, just to earn a few quid for a kidney or uterus? The risk and illegality surely outweighed the financial reward in a case like that?

Why not take them after the post mortem when no one was interested in the condition of the body and it wouldn't affect the outcome of a murder case?
How long after death was the post mortem of these victims all over and done with? Just wondering as I haven't any books with me.

[Jon Guy]

Its all very well saying Mann was supervised but was that supervision taking place every minute of the day? The answer is you dont know, and nor do I, so why mention it. Its all very well people saying this is what was supposed to happened but the point is that we simply dont know.

Why did I mention it, Trevor, I suppose it was because I thought you might be interested in some facts.

I think you need to prove that the regular procedures were not adhered to, rather than telling us not to assume they were adhered to.

[Trevor Marriott]

No, she wasn`t Trevor. The p.m. was carried out at 14hrs that day, and until then she was locked in the mortuary shed (the police had the key) and PC Barnes was outside.

So are you saying that that the mortuary was under lock down until then and that no one went in for any reason. If you are the please provide proof.

Correct me if I am wrong but the mortuary was nothing more than a shed attached to the workhouse, and in fact other persons are known to have entered the shed/mortuary and tampered with the body.#

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[Trevor Marriott]

Why did I mention it, Trevor, I suppose it was because I thought you might be interested in some facts.

I think you need to prove that the regular procedures were not adhered to, rather than telling us not to assume they were adhered to.

You were the one suggesting he was under supervision not me. I simply asked for proof of your statement.

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[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks for clarifying , Trevor.
I don't think any medical man would have a leg to stand on in court claiming his removal of organs from a murder victim pre-post mortem was 'lawful', if caught, do you? I can't see anyone risking his career to do that myself, just to earn a few quid for a kidney or uterus? The risk and illegality surely outweighed the financial reward in a case like that?

You are right but bearing in mind this acquisition of organs would appear to relate to medical students and anatomists as well as Doctors. Make no mistake there was a big demand for organs. And of course if they were taken covertly how would the perpetrator ever get found out?

Why not take them after the post mortem when no one was interested in the condition of the body and it wouldn't affect the outcome of a murder case?
How long after death was the post mortem of these victims all over and done with? Just wondering as I haven't any books with me.

Well if i see an item for sale in a shop window, do I go in and buy it there and then, or do I walk around and go back later and hope it hasn't been sold. .

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[Jon Guy]

So are you saying that that the mortuary was under lock down until then and that no one went in for any reason. If you are the please provide proof.

Correct me if I am wrong but the mortuary was nothing more than a shed attached to the workhouse, and in fact other persons are known to have entered the shed/mortuary and tampered with the body.#

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Inspector Chandler: The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police

Daily Tel Sept 14th 1888

[Trevor Marriott]

Inspector Chandler: The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police

Daily Tel Sept 14th 1888

"no one else touched the corpse" we don't know that do we because we don't know if any other person went in side. Others could have gone inside and were seen not to have touched the body but others may have gone in unsupervised.

Is it specifically written anywhere that the mortuary/shed was on lockdown and that no one else entered other than the nurses? So far all we have are inferences that is what happened, But again we simply do not know.

If no one was to be let in why were the nurses?

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[Jon Guy]

"no one else touched the corpse" we don't know that do we because we don't know if any other person went in side. Others could have gone inside and were seen not to have touched the body but others may have gone in unsupervised.

There was a policeman there at all times, Trevor.
Only the nurses were recorded as going in with the body.

Is it specifically written anywhere that the mortuary/shed was on lockdown and that no one else entered other than the nurses? .

Inspector Chandler stated it at the inquest.

If no one was to be let in why were the nurses?

The nurses were let in because there were complaints about the two male attendants undressing the body of a woman (Nichols). I think it was the Board of Guardians who wanted female staff to deal with the victims. Hence the two female nurses.

[Trevor Marriott]

There was a policeman there at all times, Trevor.
Only the nurses were recorded as going in with the body.

Just because he was there, how do we know he didn't let others go in? Where is the evidence from him confirming what he did and didn't do. The discovery of the nurses going in only came to light when the doctors came back to do the PM

Inspector Chandler stated it at the inquest.

Chandler did not remain at the mortuary so how did he know what went on after he had left

The nurses were let in because there were complaints about the two male attendants undressing the body of a woman (Nichols). I think it was the Board of Guardians who wanted female staff to deal with the victims. Hence the two female nurses.

How would the police officer be aware of that if he had been instructed not to let anyone in?

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