Facial Mutilations

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Can we assume that all of the victims were cut at the exact same angle and that his grip on the knife was exactly the same in every case?"

Actually, the grip and angle in Kate's case was REMARKABLY different. Have you looked at her PM lately?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Unless we are dealing with a professional throat cutter who prided himself on consistency I fail to see the significance. Why is it so hard to accept that it could simply be a means to an end? Why focus on differences in the throat cuts when the significant fact is that her throat was cut and her internal organs were removed. To me, that makes her much more like the other victims of the C5 since I think it is quite reasonable to include Polly in that general description.

If you focus too hard on the trees you can't see the forest.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Dr. Phillips

Hello (again) John. Ah! You quote Phillips--excellent!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good quote

Hello John. Exactly. Trevor wisely quotes the inquest proceedings.

Incidentally, we once had a poster on another site who claimed the cut was a 360. That's pure nonsense. Her long cut went from one side all the way to the other.

Don't be misled by the trolls.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Ok, thanks, John.
We`ll ignore Dr Phillips remarks then and go with Trev, Lynne and Wynne

Hi Jon,

This is what Dr Phillips had to say at the inquest: " The throat had been severed. The incisions of the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck on a line with the angle of the jaw, carried entirely round and again in front of the neck, and ending at a point about midway between the jaw and the sternum or breast bone on the right hand. There were two distinct clean cuts on the body of the vertebrae on the left side of the spine. They were parallel to each other, and separated by about half an inch. The muscular structures between the side processes of bone of the vertebrae had an appearance as if an attempt had been made to separate the bones of the neck."

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

This is from Trevor Marriott's Jack the Ripper: The 21st Century Investigation, in respect of the Chapman inquest. Coroner (to jury) "...The deceased was then lowered to the ground, and laid on her back; and although in doing so she may have fallen slightly against the fence, this movement was probably effected with care. Her throat was then cut in two places with savage determination, and the injuries to the abdomen commenced."

Ok, thanks, John.
We`ll ignore Dr Phillips remarks then and go with Trev, Lynne and Wynne

[John G]

Are you happy with that for your source ?
Well, I guess you`re a suspect ripperologist so that should be expected of you

Again, this is how Dr Phillips described it : "and reached right round the neck"

Hello Jon,

This is from Trevor Marriott's Jack the Ripper: The 21st Century Investigation, in respect of the Chapman inquest. Coroner (to jury) "...The deceased was then lowered to the ground, and laid on her back; and although in doing so she may have fallen slightly against the fence, this movement was probably effected with care. Her throat was then cut in two places with savage determination, and the injuries to the abdomen commenced."

[Jon Guy]

John

Be very careful if your citing Lynne`s work.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Harry. Thanks.

As the coroner stated, "Her throat was then cut in TWO places with savage determination . . . "

And, as you surmise, these OBVIOUSLY (despite the poor grammar) led to the parallel bone markings.

All the evidence is there--for those interested.

Cheers.
LC

Are you happy with that for your source ?
Well, I guess you`re a suspect ripperologist so that should be expected of you

Again, this is how Dr Phillips described it : "and reached right round the neck"

[lynn cates]

coroner

Hello Harry. Thanks.

As the coroner stated, "Her throat was then cut in TWO places with savage determination . . . "

And, as you surmise, these OBVIOUSLY (despite the poor grammar) led to the parallel bone markings.

All the evidence is there--for those interested.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon,

Lynn's Ripperologist article cites Dr Llewellyn: " In the left side of the neck, about 1in below the jaw, there was an incision about 4 in. in length, and ran from the point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, an commencing about 1in in front of it, was a circular incision that terminated at a point about 3 in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae."

It therefore appears that one of the "parallel cuts" inflicted on Polly also reached the spine.

Hi John

Yes, there were parallel cuts to the throat of Nichols, nicking her vertebrae.

I am querying Lynn`s claim that Chapman had two parallel cuts to the throat
Can you provide a source for this ?

[John G]

Thanks for that, Harry

Yes, the above refers to the nicks on the spine - I `ve bolded the bit above where it states this in the passage.

I was after a description of the throat cut stating there were two parallel cuts on Chapman.
This is from the same source you provided above: He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck..

Hello Jon,

Lynn's Ripperologist article cites Dr Llewellyn: " In the left side of the neck, about 1in below the jaw, there was an incision about 4 in. in length, and ran from the point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, an commencing about 1in in front of it, was a circular incision that terminated at a point about 3 in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae."

It therefore appears that one of the "parallel cuts" inflicted on Polly also reached the spine.

[Jon Guy]

The throat had been severed as before described. the incisions into the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck. There were two distinct clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel with each other and separated by about half an inch.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/chapman.html

Thanks for that, Harry

Yes, the above refers to the nicks on the spine - I `ve bolded the bit above where it states this in the passage.

I was after a description of the throat cut stating there were two parallel cuts on Chapman.
This is from the same source you provided above: He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck..

[Harry D]

Do you have the sources for this claim, please Lynn?
I know Chapman had two parallel cuts on her spine, but I`m unaware she had two parallel cuts to the throat.

The throat had been severed as before described. the incisions into the skin indicated that they had been made from the left side of the neck. There were two distinct clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel with each other and separated by about half an inch.

http://www.casebook.org/victims/chapman.html

[Jon Guy]

Hello Gareth. Thanks.

"The depth may be relevant, Lynn . . ."

Agreed.

"But I see these as mere practicalities . . ."

Practical is one quick, deep cut.

" . . . if you want to make sure you get a satisfactory "bleed", then you're going to make deep cuts to the neck."

I agree that the first cut was to bleed. But why plural? And why not in the subsequent murders?

"As to the parallelism of the wounds, we have no data on how precisely (or approximately) parallel they were."

But we DO know about distance. One victim had the two cuts an inch apart, the other, half an inch. Looks like part of a routine.

Cheers.
LC

Do you have the sources for this claim, please Lynn?
I know Chapman had two parallel cuts on her spine, but I`m unaware she had two parallel cuts to the throat.

[Jon Guy]

Not so sure about Polly, Lynn. The intention to remove organs may be indicated by the deep cuts inflicted on her abdomen.

Hi Sam

But because of the ribs, pelvis and chest plate areas, isn`t the abdomen really the only part of the torso the killer could reach that he could sink his knife deep enough and drag, and not because organ removal was intended at this point.