The FBI Profile of Jack the Ripper & it's usefulness

[John G]

Hello John

The impression I get from Davis is that the Hanbury Street carters were a little further down the road. From this, I take it that there were not that many others in the vicinity. This, together with Mrs Long's testimony, tends to paint a rather sleepy picture of Hanbury Street before Annie's body was discovered.

Hi Sam,

Thanks for reply. Begg and Bennett (2012) state that Kent and Green were outside the Black Swan pub three door away on the same side of the street- apparently the packing case business operated from the pub's rear yard. However, they seem to have been the only workman in the immediate vicinity who are mentioned, which I must say surprises me a little when you consider how populated Whitechapel was, coupled with the fact that it was more common in Victorian times for people to start work early- maybe just not that early!

Regards,

John

[Fisherman]

Irrespective of where the door was, it would have been obvious to anyone that there were punters, very much awake, inside the club, any of whom could have exited and caught a would-be killer in the act. Besides, we know of a good few people, apart from Liz, who were in or around Dutfield's Yard within a short time of her death. Make no mistake, Dutfield's Yard was a very risky venue for a premeditated murder, let alone one of the evisceration type.

"Irrespective of where the door was..."?
But that door is all-important to the question, Gareth - no irrespective applies here.

The clubbers were having a get-together, we all know that. So, if the killer saw Stride and thought "Ah, a dark yard, thatīs exactly the kind of venue I like, then that notion would be stupid once he realized that there was a door leading from the club into the yard.
If the door had NOT been there, then the clubbers would all have entered and exited the club via the front door facing Berner Street, and the clubbers would have posed no trhreat to somebody who shoved a victim into the darkness of the yard and finished her there.

It applies that if the killer knew nothing about the yard door, he may well have taken Stride into the yard with the intention to eviscerate her there, banking on getting a couple of undisturbed minutes to do it.
Once he got in there, brandished the knife and subsequently saw the door, he may well have thought f-ing hell, this wonīt do, and then he finished Stride to leave no witness.

It is a completely feasible scenario, and it all hinges on that "irrespective" door.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hello John

The impression I get from Davis is that the Hanbury Street carters were a little further down the road. From this, I take it that there were not that many others in the vicinity. This, together with Mrs Long's testimony, tends to paint a rather sleepy picture of Hanbury Street before Annie's body was discovered.

[John G]

It was also "escapable" on three sides, JG - which is more than could be said of Dutfield's Yard or 29 Hanbury Street, fence-hopping excepted. Besides, my main problem with Berner Street that night is that it was rather busy, certainly when compared with the practically deserted and sparsely occupied Mitre Square.

Yes, sorry, I meant to point out that it was also "escapable" on three sides! Just out of interest, do you think that there could have been a significant number of individuals in the vicinity of Hanbury Street who did not appear in the official police reports? The reason I suggest this is because, as I noted earlier, working-class Victorians used to work very long hours and this must have necessitated an early start to the working day for many. I mean, surely John Davis wasn't the only person preparing to go to work at 5:30 in the morning? In fact, as an example, James Kent and James Green were both summoned by Davis, so presumably they were already at work, i.e at the packing case firm at the back of the nearby Black Swan pub, or at least just about to start work.

[Sam Flynn]

Regarding Mitre Square, an obvious problem for the killer is that it was accessible on three sides.

It was also "escapable" on three sides, JG - which is more than could be said of Dutfield's Yard or 29 Hanbury Street, fence-hopping excepted. Besides, my main problem with Berner Street that night is that it was rather busy, certainly when compared with the practically deserted and sparsely occupied Mitre Square.

[John G]

I think the most obvious explanation is that she pissed him off by wasting his time (and perhaps money)because she would not go with him where he wanted, he lost is normal calm and attacked her prematurely, and with the interruption from scwartz, thought it best to skidaddle and try again under better circs.

Yes, I agree that this is a distinct possibility. James Brown saw a woman he believed to be Stride at around 12:45. He heard her say to a man "No not tonight some other night." Now, of course, she may or may not have been talking to her killer, assuming that the woman was Stride, but it indicates to me that she may not have been intending to solicit that particular night.

Of course, if that was the case a number of scenarios are possible. As you suggest her killer may have become frustrated at her lack of cooperation, leading him to launch a risky direct assault, as possibly witnessed by Scwartz.

As a consequence JTR may have been forced to improvise, pushing stride into the pitch-black darkness of Dutfield's Yard and qulckly slitting her throat. Now, of course, this may have seemed like a good idea at the time, but he may have subsequently become spooked when he became fully aware of the noise emanating from the club: for instance, he might have though that he heard someone about to leave the club- distinctly possible considering the fact that he could have been disorientated by the noise inside the building as well as the poor visual conditions- and, already agitated by the Scwartz/Pipeman encounter, he decides to flee the scene.

Or perhaps once he started to compose himself. after the initial rush of adrenaline resulting in the Stride assault, he might have become concerned that Scwartz or Pipeman could return with a constable.

I would also once again emphasize the appalling lighting conditions in the immediate area. In such circumstances he may have found it difficult, if not impossible, to see what he was doing, meaning that he might have reasoned that he would be unable to effectively mutilate Stride and remove organs; this is all the more likely if Dr Phillips was correct in his conclusions that JTR would have required a degree of anatomical knowledge and surgical skill, rather than someone who just slashes away in a random or haphazard fashion.

[John G]

To my mind, Dutfield's Yard was possibly the riskiest of all the murder sites. The number of people known to have been in the area around the time of the murder seems rather higher than at any other location - and I'm just thinking about Berner Street itself, to say nothing of Dutfield's Yard or the (active) Club house adjoining it.

Although I accept that this is not conventional wisdom, for me Dutfield's Yard, when all factors are considered, wasn't that riskier than either Hanbury Street or Mitre Square.

Thus, evidence suggests that much of the area was cloaked in pitch black darkness; this can be implied from the testimony of Joseph Lave- who couldn't even see the door to get back in, but had to feel along the wall of the club to orientate where he was-and, of course, Louis Diemshutz who, when he entered the passage, thought initially that he was obstructed not by a body but a heap of dirt (even though he must have been observing Stride's body from very close range).

However, it could be argued that anyone leaving the club would light up the passage once they opened the door- but this would also alert the killer and allow him to make good his escape.

In contrast, Annie Chapman may have been murdered in broad daylight- the sun rose at 5:23am that morning, several minutes prior to the Elizabeth Long sighting. Moreover, if the killer was interrupted wouldn't he have only one clear escape exist, unless he decided to scale fences or force his way through 29 Hanbury Street?

Isn't it also possible that, at the time Chapman was being killed and eviscerated there could have been a significant number of people either going to work or, like John Davis, preparing to go to work? of course, in Victorian England, for many, the working day started much earlier than is typical of the modern day.

Regarding Mitre Square, an obvious problem for the killer is that it was accessible on three sides. Therefore, in my opinion, there was a significant risk that the killer could have been caught by surprise if someone entered the square. And, of course, there was the added problem that, unlike Berner Street, this area was regularly patrolled by two police officers. In fact, PC Harvey reached the entrance of the square at 1:44pm, less than 10 minutes after the Lawende sighting.

[Magpie]

Little bit of checking confirms that the old chloroform over the nose and mouth trick would require at least 5 minutes to render someone unconscious--possibly more if it was being countered by a rush of adrenaline from the victim. The victim would not go peacefully either. Another factor is that I believe that chloroform administered this way would have time to leave tell-tale burns on the lips and nostrils, and possibly in the throat, that Rosella mentioned.

[Amanda]

Chloroform...

That's true. I know chloroform was used to kill cats in those days. I'm not medically trained though, wouldn't there be burn marks or sores on the inside of the victims' mouths?

Hi Rosella,
Not necessarily. If it was quick enough and administered via a handkerchief it might not leave any significant marks.

However, there would usually be a faint smell around the victim's mouth. The same smell can almost always be detected in the lungs during autopsy.

Amanda

[Rosella]

That's true. I know chloroform was used to kill cats in those days. I'm not medically trained though, wouldn't there be burn marks or sores on the inside of the victims' mouths?

[Amanda]

Silent victim...

Hi Rosella,

Perhaps we should consider the possibility that JtR used chloroform. It was readily available at chemist shops if you were in the 'right trade' and a few drops on a handkerchief would produce the desired effect of knocking out the victim before she had chance to scream.
Amanda

[Rosella]

They were singing loud Russian songs upstairs at the time Liz was probably killed. Morris Eagle, who was one of the singers, (and the man who'd earlier felt his way along the passage) said the windows were open and he was sure he would have heard a scream if there was one. Mrs Diemschultz was working in the kitchen and didn't hear anything. Why, if Stride was attacked and forced down on the muddy ground, would she not have at least yelled out once?

Also, I know the police were supposed to follow their beats to the inch. If however, PC Harvey maybe didn't bother to go down Church Passage into Mitre Square as he said he did (just couldn't be bothered, perhaps skimped on doing it before) then that would have given Jack a few extra minutes of uninterrupted enjoyment, with no risk of being caught.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, it was obvious that the club had a meeting. I just said as much, in fact. What was perhaps NOT obvious to somebody who came into the street and saw Stride standing at the entrance to the yard, was that the clubbers used a door inside the dark yard to get in and out of the club.

Irrespective of where the door was, it would have been obvious to anyone that there were punters, very much awake, inside the club, any of whom could have exited and caught a would-be killer in the act. Besides, we know of a good few people, apart from Liz, who were in or around Dutfield's Yard within a short time of her death. Make no mistake, Dutfield's Yard was a very risky venue for a premeditated murder, let alone one of the evisceration type.

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy:

HI Christer

Obviously, the Ripper could control his urges, to an extent, or he would have been caught.

Yep, very true. So we are not dealing with a psychotic here!

True, but the same murder sites stats show that cutting throats was even more prevalent, and in most of the cases the killer certainly got into the act of throat cutting, judging by the deep cuts and nicks to the vertebrae.

The throatcutting could well be something he felt he had to do to ensure him to be able to do what he wanted to do. And being disturbed could be what makes for this statistical skewing, since the throatcutting came before the eviscerations.

That`s like saying an IRA bomber would plant a bomb in a pub, but would not throw a brick through the pub window he was passing that was full of squaddies.

With respect, no, itīs not a good comparison at all. Neither of those things is something the IRA bomber feels an uncontrollable urge to do, due to deep-lying mental causes.
Once again, I am not saying that such causes were there. The underlying inclinations could be something totally different.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

It should have been rather obvious, Fish. Even the next most risky venue, the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, didn't have a buzzing club-house attached to it.

Yes, it was obvious that the club had a meeting. I just said as much, in fact. What was perhaps NOT obvious to somebody who came into the street and saw Stride standing at the entrance to the yard, was that the clubbers used a door inside the dark yard to get in and out of the club.
And if that was not obvious, then maybe the killer could not care less about the clubhouse hullaballoo - if he thought he could be offered seclusion for five minutes inside the yard, he may well have been quite content with that. It seems he opted for seclusion.

The best,
Fisherman