Poll: Organs/body parts removed or not?

[lynn cates]

evidence

Hello Garry. Do we have any evidence of throttling with Kate or "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

There was consistency in the crime scene signature in the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Each was throttled before her throat was cut, then subjected to abdominal mutilation. The modus operandi was consistent, too, with the exception of Kelly, the difference being that the Miller's Court murder occurred in a room with the victim's body positioned on a bed adjacent to a partition wall. The killer simply adapted his behaviour to suit the demands of the crime scene.

As for the killer being pressed for time during the Mitre Square murder, this is not borne out by the fact that a number of delicate cuts were inflicted upon and about Eddowes' eyelids, ritualistic wounds that the killer would hardly have meted out had he been desperate to leave the crime scene.

The expectation, too, of absolute consistency across a series of Ripper-like crimes is also wholly unrealistic. Sadosexual murder is subject to the laws of diminishing returns. As a consequence the ferocity and brutality of such crimes tend to escalate as the series progresses. Far from raising issues as to authorship, therefore, the increase in savagery between Nichols and Chapman, for example, or Eddowes and Kelly, is precisely what would be expected in the offending evolution of such a killer.

[Michael W Richards]

On the contrary, Mike, Kelly had nearly every organ in her thorax and abdomen removed, and her femur(s) neatly filleted. To the extent that this evidences any sort of prowess, I'd say that Kelly's killer, if different, was more "skillful" and "knowledgeable" than the man/men who dispatched Chapman and Eddowes. Frankly, in my view, there was no lesser skill or knowledge in evidence at Miller's Court than there was at Hanbury Street or Mitre Square.

Of course its my turn to point out that among those organs taken from her abdomen, none left the room with him. Also worth noting that the killer seemingly absentmindedly carved some of Mary off her bones without any obvious conclusion in mind,.... other than some minor stabs and cuts, the man that killed Polly and Annie didn't make many superfluous cuts. However, the man that killed Kate did, just like the man that killed Mary.

When the first 2 were killed, they sought out medical expertise. Fact. Bonds suggestion that there was no skill or knowledge in those 2 murders directly contradicts the man who actually did the autopsies, so Ill lean on Phillips for that commentary.

Bad form.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

The idea that one killer changed his MO, his Signature, what Skill and Knowledge he possessed to kill Liz and Mary is far fetched....they were dispatched by someone who had no appreciable skill or knowledge

On the contrary, Mike, Kelly had nearly every organ in her thorax and abdomen removed, and her femur(s) neatly filleted. To the extent that this evidences any sort of prowess, I'd say that Kelly's killer, if different, was more "skillful" and "knowledgeable" than the man/men who dispatched Chapman and Eddowes. Frankly, in my view, there was no lesser skill or knowledge in evidence at Miller's Court than there was at Hanbury Street or Mitre Square.

[moonbegger]

Same killer, Observer, and the fact that in Chapman`s case the hand may have been dropped there after the rings were removed, and therefore possibly the same with Kelly.

That is of course IF the killer took her rings ! for my mind all the evidence points towards Longs couple finding Annie dead in the back yard and rummaging through her pockets and nicking her rings .. albeit that I am the only one who concludes this ..

cheers , moonbegger .

[Michael W Richards]

Im pleased to see that it seems almost everyone agrees with the contention that body parts were taken fromsome of the respective victims during their murders...since the wounds made while in situ substantiate that supposition.

The idea that one killer changed his MO, his Signature, what Skill and Knowledge he possessed to kill Liz and Mary is far fetched....they were dispatched by someone who had no appreciable skill or knowledge, and in a fashion unlike the remaining 3 victims. An argument can be made for both sides in the case of Eddowes, but not in those 2 cases.

Method, Motive, Signature....why do any of them have to change when reviewing Ripper crimes, are we to believe that he decide to make these 2 murders sloppier to throw the police off his scent? Why bother, they didn't have his scent to start with. People claim the obvious missing mutilations in the case of Liz Stride were due to an interruption....based on what? A guess? Surely we can do better than cover our eyes and guess.

The ONLY reason a person could use to marry all those 5 women under one killer is a supposition that his basic fundamental instincts, acts and methodologies changed during the course of the murders.

Which would come second to a guess that different men were involved.

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

You've lost me Jon. What does the above signify?

Same killer, Observer, and the fact that in Chapman`s case the hand may have been dropped there after the rings were removed, and therefore possibly the same with Kelly.

[Observer]

Chapman`s left hand was found almost in the same position as Kelly`s, probably dropped there after her rings were removed.

You've lost me Jon. What does the above signify?

[Observer]

Hello Trevor.

"There are too many different signatures to point to one killer."

Now you're talking. And this is WHY you were a detective.

Cheers.
LC

I could point you in the direction of half a dozen mutilators with more signatures than you could shake a uteri at. Take a good look at Gary Ridgeway for one.

[Jon Guy]

With regards to Kelly, with her abdomen almost emptied perhaps the killer placed it their but not by design. There are to many different signatures to point to one killer

Chapman`s left hand was found almost in the same position as Kelly`s, probably dropped there after her rings were removed.

[lynn cates]

detective

Hello Trevor.

"There are too many different signatures to point to one killer."

Now you're talking. And this is WHY you were a detective.

Cheers.
LC

[Hunter]

Lol...

[moonbegger]

Yeah, nobody's drunk or sober at the same time. And the parrot's just figurin' out what to say to suit him...
But at least the parrot reasonably expects a positive result for his effort.

Cheers

G'day Hunter ,

After following this thread for the past few days , I would like to withdraw my support for the drunk ass shitting on the bar scenario .. give me the parrot any day

moonbegger

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Mr Marriot

Couldn't the killer have positioned the legs after he had performed all his post mortem activities? I include the removal of the organs in those activities by the way.



When found, Mary Kelly's hand was resting inside her abdomen. As you imply in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes it would have been difficult to perform the mutilations should their bodies have been in the position when found, that is legs propped up. It's the same with Kelly, her hand was surely placed inside her body after the killer had performed all his mutilations.

I believe the positioning of the body after all mutilations had been carried out is one of Jack's signature cards. In my mind, it most definitely points to the fact that Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were murdered by the same man. Also, considering the butchery (and no, I do not think a butcher was the culprit) carried out on the hapless Nichol's only a week before Chapman's murder, I'd say Nichol's was also murdered by the same man.

Regards

Observer

Hi
Why would the killer do that and if he were going to do that surely he would position both legs. why just one for one killing and two for another and none with the others. Besides in Mitre Square time was of the essence

With regards to Kelly, with her abdomen almost emptied perhaps the killer placed it their but not by design. There are to many different signatures to point to one killer

[Observer]

the mortuary
I going to throw in another whammy for you in relation to this organs removal issue which you cant seem to grasp or don't want to grasp is that when the bodies of Chapman and Eddowes were found Chapman had both legs drawn up and Eddowes one.

That shows how the killer left the victims. Anyone with any intelligence should be able to understand that in the case of Chapman it would be almost impossible to be able to work in an abdomen and remove a uterus with the legs in that position. The same applies to Eddowes with her being found with one leg drawn up.

Hi Mr Marriot

Couldn't the killer have positioned the legs after he had performed all his post mortem activities? I include the removal of the organs in those activities by the way.

When found, Mary Kelly's hand was resting inside her abdomen. As you imply in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes it would have been difficult to perform the mutilations should their bodies have been in the position when found, that is legs propped up. It's the same with Kelly, her hand was surely placed inside her body after the killer had performed all his mutilations.

I believe the positioning of the body after all mutilations had been carried out is one of Jack's signature cards. In my mind, it most definitely points to the fact that Chapman, Eddowes, and Kelly were murdered by the same man. Also, considering the butchery (and no, I do not think a butcher was the culprit) carried out on the hapless Nichol's only a week before Chapman's murder, I'd say Nichol's was also murdered by the same man.

Regards

Observer