Poll: Organs/body parts removed or not?

[MrBarnett]

Well in Eddowes case I disagree. An attack from behind sticking the knife in the windpipe, death almost instantaneous no arterial blood. This killer knew how to use a knife to kill, consistent with how a soldier would kill in the battlefield quick and silent.

But closer to home, away from those silent battlefields where a soldier could creep up unseen, the throttling of pros by customers, or visa versa, seems much more likely, wouldn't you say?

MrB

[Lechmere]

On the late 19th century battlefield not too many people where killed via a knife attack to the windpipe.

Overkill is not uncommon with serial killers.

[Trevor Marriott]

Quite so Lynn, however, we must admit there is no obvious evidence to suggest that either Stride or Eddowes had their throats cut while standing. Therefore, we must consider how the killer(s) managed to get these victims down, horizontal, and apparently, without too much fuss or resistance, and no bruises to the head.

Any ideas?

Well in Eddowes case I disagree. An attack from behind sticking the knife in the windpipe, death almost instantaneous no arterial blood. This killer knew how to use a knife to kill, consistent with how a soldier would kill in the battlefield quick and silent.

[Trevor Marriott]

As Jon states, Trev, throttling served to immobilize the victims, not kill them.


The neck structures, Trev, were severed from one side to the other. Nor was there any bloodflow or other evidence to suggest that this wound was inflicted whilst Eddowes was in an upright position. Granted, the medical men found no evidence of arterial jetting about the body, but this should come as no great surprise given the rainfall just before the murder along with the anatomical debris that littered the immediate area.

Surely if you are intent on murder and you are brandishing a long blade knife which you subsequently use to cut the victims throat and then rip open the abdomen why not simply use the knife in the first instance. Throttling doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things it is not a quick method even to the point of immobilization. Strangling someone to death takes 4-5 mins on average according to serial killer Arthur Shawcross

Gary Ridgway when murdering The member of the Otero family thought he had strangled some of them to death, only for them to regain consciousness

If throttling was the method as you suggest then why cut the throats afterwards, why not simply carry out the mutilations and remove the organs if that was his intent?

[Trevor Marriott]

That's precisely the point I'm making, Mike - it is a simple fact that organs were cut out of the bodies in at least two of the "Ripper" scenes of crime. Irrefutably so. Whether they were taken away from the scene is a secondary matter.

But of course if there was a different killer for Kelly that would change the whole picture because it corroborate that fact that the organs of the other two could have been removed at the mortuary

[Sam Flynn]

Of course its my turn to point out that among those organs taken from her abdomen, none left the room with him.

That's precisely the point I'm making, Mike - it is a simple fact that organs were cut out of the bodies in at least two of the "Ripper" scenes of crime. Irrefutably so. Whether they were taken away from the scene is a secondary matter.

[Wickerman]

Quite so Lynn, however, we must admit there is no obvious evidence to suggest that either Stride or Eddowes had their throats cut while standing. Therefore, we must consider how the killer(s) managed to get these victims down, horizontal, and apparently, without too much fuss or resistance, and no bruises to the head.

Any ideas?

[lynn cates]

marks

Hello Garry. Thanks.

Annie Chapman, perhaps? She had a swollen, protruding tongue; Polly, a lacerated one. They were also bruised facially. ALL that is absent on the others.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

If the killer strangled them to death why cut the throats?

As Jon states, Trev, throttling served to immobilize the victims, not kill them.

In the case of Eddowes the doctor said that death was instantaneous from a wound the severed the windpipe, indicating to me an attack from behind whilst she was still standing, sticking the knife into the center of the throat severing the windpipe then drawing the knife across.

The neck structures, Trev, were severed from one side to the other. Nor was there any bloodflow or other evidence to suggest that this wound was inflicted whilst Eddowes was in an upright position. Granted, the medical men found no evidence of arterial jetting about the body, but this should come as no great surprise given the rainfall just before the murder along with the anatomical debris that littered the immediate area.

[Wickerman]

If the killer strangled them to death why cut the throats?

Strangulation incapacitated them, it did not kill them.

[GUT]

G'day Trevor

If the killer strangled them to death why cut the throats?

In the case of Eddowes the doctor said that death was instantaneous from a wound the severed the windpipe, indicating to me an attack from behind whilst she was still standing, sticking the knife into the center of the throat severing the windpipe then drawing the knife across.

I think the answer s rather simple strangulation doesn't release all the pent up rage, or blood for that matter.

[moonbegger]

If the killer strangled them to death why cut the throats?

"He is to wring its head from its neck, not dividing it completely, and is to splash some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar; the rest of the blood must be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering. The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven"

There's always that ..

moonbegger .

[Trevor Marriott]

There was consistency in the crime scene signature in the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Each was throttled before her throat was cut, then subjected to abdominal mutilation. The modus operandi was consistent, too, with the exception of Kelly, the difference being that the Miller's Court murder occurred in a room with the victim's body positioned on a bed adjacent to a partition wall. The killer simply adapted his behaviour to suit the demands of the crime scene.

As for the killer being pressed for time during the Mitre Square murder, this is not borne out by the fact that a number of delicate cuts were inflicted upon and about Eddowes' eyelids, ritualistic wounds that the killer would hardly have meted out had he been desperate to leave the crime scene.

The expectation, too, of absolute consistency across a series of Ripper-like crimes is also wholly unrealistic. Sadosexual murder is subject to the laws of diminishing returns. As a consequence the ferocity and brutality of such crimes tend to escalate as the series progresses. Far from raising issues as to authorship, therefore, the increase in savagery between Nichols and Chapman, for example, or Eddowes and Kelly, is precisely what would be expected in the offending evolution of such a killer.

If the killer strangled them to death why cut the throats?

In the case of Eddowes the doctor said that death was instantaneous from a wound the severed the windpipe, indicating to me an attack from behind whilst she was still standing, sticking the knife into the center of the throat severing the windpipe then drawing the knife across.

[El White Chap]

Swollen and protruding tongue with Eddowes, as I recall, Lynn, and the ecchymosis reportedly present in Kelly's neck tissues.

Good find Garry, it seems strangulation is still being hotly debated with Kate and Mary.

[Garry Wroe]

Swollen and protruding tongue with Eddowes, as I recall, Lynn, and the ecchymosis reportedly present in Kelly's neck tissues.