JTR - Cunning, Careful, or Lucky?

[Fisherman]

Abby Normal:

Ok but what about the idea to throw off police by making them think it was someone who lived in the building? As I said the fact that it was found in a doorway could be significant.

It would take a very dumb killer to place a clue in the doorway leading to his lodgings, Abby. And it would take an equally dumb police force to accept that he would have done so.
Routinely, they would have checked out the ones who lived up the stairs - but they would not anticipate to find the killer there unless he was deranged.

Also, if he carried the apron along with him from Mitre Square for reasons of carrying the organs in it - why would he throw it away in the doorway and then balance the slippery innards in his bare hands the last few yards ...?
If it was a trophy - why throw that trophy away?

If it had been either of these things, the apron would not have been thrown away in the doorway. Of course, if he first took the innards to his lodgings, hid them there, and THEN went back out and threw the apron in the doorway, we may have some sort of logically working solution.
But basically, doing so in your OWN doorway or very close to it, makes no sense at all. And I can´t imagine that he set of for a second longish nocturnal walk, apron in hand, while the streets were swarming with police.

All in all, there is very good reason not to belive in the organ carrier theory, and an absolutely excellent reason not to buy the trophy suggestion either.

And for the life of me I can't really see any of the practical reasons.
For example, your bandage idea. He knew he would be heading immediately home and could take careof a cut there. And any blood would be seeped up by his clothes. If he cut his hand he could just stick his hand in his pocket.

Oh-oh! How can you tell that he knew that he would be heading immediately home?

I don´t think that he did. And I can point to a logical reason why.

"Any blood would be seeped up by his clothes", you say. Fair enough. But would a killer want his cothes blood-drenched if he could avoid it? Would anybody, killers or not, want their clothes blood-drenched if they could avoid it?
If you could prevent such a thing by wrapping apiece of cloth around the hand, a piece of cloth that you could just throw away afterwards, then why not do so?

And if he used it for a bandage to possibly stop a blood trail the police could follow, why would he drop it before he got home?

Two reasons leap to mind:

1. It had stopped bleeding.
2. The rag was deeply incriminating.
A combination of the two sounds an appealing suggestion to me.

And surely he would not drop it at his own door step where it was found?

Well, as you have seen, I would not propose that he would drop the rag close to his lodgings - on the contrary. My suggestion is that he dropped it very far from his home, but nevertheless indicating in which direction he lived.

[PC Fitzroy-Toye]

Hi fisherman I wonder if he was just cleaning up wilst leaving the scene and stopped in the doorway to finish what he was doing? He could of been trying to throw the police off Its something I did consider myself but Im more inclined to think he was just cleaning up and it was a good dark place to finnish up and leave the rag.

[Fisherman]

Hi fisherman I wonder if he was just cleaning up wilst leaving the scene and stopped in the doorway to finish what he was doing? He could of been trying to throw the police off Its something I did consider myself but Im more inclined to think he was just cleaning up and it was a good dark place to finnish up and leave the rag.

The distance is too long, the way I see things. Why would he not clean up immediately, and rid himself of the rag as quickly as possible? It was a very damaging item.

If he had blood and feces all over his hands, and had procured the rag to get rid of it - then why walk a number of streets for a number of minutes before getting down to business? There were dark places all along the way and doorways aplenty.

Moreover, if Long is to believed: why hang on to the rag for more than half an hour before dropping it in the doorway...?

[Sam Flynn]

then why walk a number of streets for a number of minutes before getting down to business? There were dark places all along the way and doorways aplenty.

...dark places and doorways in City Police territory, who'd soon be combing the area for the murderer. The benefit of Goulston Street was that it was close enough to Mitre Square to reach within a few short minutes, and sufficiently on the other side of the Police "border" to give him extra time to clean up. There were, incidentally, plenty of dark places and doorways on the other side of the border before he got to Goulston Street itself. There's nothing to say he didn't duck into other doorways en route.

[GUT]

G'day Fisherman

Moreover, if Long is to believed: why hang on to the rag for more than half an hour before dropping it in the doorway...?

To me that's the sticky question.

Surely he wasn't wiping his hands all the way along with a bloody rag and nobody noticed.

[Sam Flynn]

To me that's the sticky question.

Simple, GUT. Long missed it the first time around.

"L.W.A.P.N.A.L.W" (he said, cryptically)

[GUT]

G'day Sam

Simple, GUT. Long missed it the first time around.

That is an explanation I can accept, but if it wasn't there when Long first passed??

"L.W.A.P.N.A.L.W" (he said, cryptically)

Cryptic alright

[Sam Flynn]

G'day GUT

That is an explanation I can accept, but if it wasn't there when Long first passed??

Then it could have been there shortly afterwards. We're not talking about a particularly lengthy period of time, in my view. When Long first passed, perhaps Jack was in another doorway in an adjacent street, wiping a bit more gunk off his hands and/or doing despicable things too vile to mention here.

Cryptic alright

"L.W.A.P.N.A.L.W" = "Long was a policeman, not a litter-warden". It's a well-worn mantra of mine, which I try not to use too often in case I bore people The point being that Long's attention would not have been particularly piqued by yet another piece of litter half-hidden in a doorway.

[GUT]

G'day Sam

Thanks for explaining. I got the "Long was a Policeman" but could't work out the rest.

The point being that Long's attention would not have been particularly piqued by yet another piece of litter half-hidden in a doorway

But his attention was piqued 30 mins or so later.

[Sam Flynn]

But his attention was piqued 30 mins or so later.

Nothing mysterious about that, GUT - we often only notice things the second (third, fourth...) time round. And, when we do, it helps if we're actually looking at them. Unless Long was wont to peer directly into every doorway he passed, the fact that he missed it on the first bounce is perfectly understandable.

[GUT]

G'day Sam

Don't misunderstand me I've always thought it highly plausible that he simply did not see it.

[Sam Flynn]

Don't misunderstand me I've always thought it highly plausible that he simply did not see it.

No probs, GUT. Nothing wrong with trying to see things from more than one angle... which, by the way, is one simple explanation of why Long only saw the apron on the second pass!

[GUT]

G'day Sam

Probably just who I am and how I make a buck, but I always try to look at both sides of the argument.

[Fisherman]

...dark places and doorways in City Police territory, who'd soon be combing the area for the murderer. The benefit of Goulston Street was that it was close enough to Mitre Square to reach within a few short minutes, and sufficiently on the other side of the Police "border" to give him extra time to clean up. There were, incidentally, plenty of dark places and doorways on the other side of the border before he got to Goulston Street itself. There's nothing to say he didn't duck into other doorways en route.

To me, this does not hold up very well. A bit further away still would, reasoning the way you do, have ensured even greater security, if that was what he was looking for. We know that Halse searched Goulston Street.

And as such, why would he need "extra time" to clean up? He needed to rub his hands on the cloth, and that would not make him clean anyway. Blood and feces does not go away from the skin when wiping it with a cloth. It is reduced and the more liquid parts go away, but the stickyness, the discoloration, the stench will remain. Besides, cleaning up in a pitch dark doorway would not help his cause if he wanted to get real neat and clean, would it?

What he needed to do with that cloth would have been done in a matter of seconds, and then he could throw the rag away thirty yards from Mitre Square and be done with it. He would also in all probability believe that he had a shortish window of time to work in before the body was found - why not use that to his advantage, instead of carrying the incriminating rag with him for a longish time?

You also write that Long probably missed the rag. Then why did he say "It was not", adamantly assuring the coroner that it was not in place at 2.20? And we know that Longs method of searching that doorway was efficient enough to find the apron, since he did so at 2.55. Plus we know that Halse said that he passed "over the spot" where the rag was found at around 2.20 but "did not notice anything then", offering some corroboration for Long. Of course, he adds that he should not necessarily have noticed it, but the way he expresses himself tells me that the rag was at least in such a position so as to enable him seeing it. And he didn´t.

You finally add that if it the apron was not there at 2.20, then it would have arrived shortly afterwards. So where was it between 1.45 and 2.20...? Where did the killer spend these 35 minutes? Doing what? And why is it not as likely that he waited 70 minutes - if you accept that he may have waited 35?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

What he needed to do with that cloth would have been done in a matter of seconds

Not so, Fish. Eddowes' externalised intestines were smeared over with excrement. Smeared, not splashed or dotted with excrement; clearly implying that some part of the killer - almost certainly his hand or hands - spread that excrement around. That stuff takes some shifting.

I don't intend to turn this particular discussion into another apron thread, so that's all I'll say here on this (feculent) matter