How Fast An Operator Was JtR?

[Errata]

Why should we assume that doctors, trained to perform surgery with caution, preparation, and other considerations relevant to keeping the patient alive, should have that might insight into the "efficiency" of somebody who is cutting people open for a completely different reason, with very possibly a completely different background and education?

It's why I compared it to tearing out upholstery in a couch. Any time you cut into anything without caring about the condition it is left in, you have a better comparison. With the couch, it was getting a new covering and new stuffing. The only thing I had to worry about was not punching through the bottom and not hitting springs which would twist the knife out of my hands.

Speed relies on many factors. Knowledge, practice, skill, emotional state, physical state, a clear head, and really above all purpose. Purpose is the big one here. What was he doing? Why was he doing it? What was his priority? What did he care about, what did he not? While any idiot cannot stumble onto a way to fix a blockage in the heart, any idiot can get an organ out fairly intact. So without any of the factors above, a guy can get lucky and do it. Except purpose. Nothing happens without that. Was it more important to cut up Eddowes face than to not get caught? Was the uterus more important than the throat injuries? What was he after? Where did he spend most of his time? And why? Was he under he impression he had all the time in the world and was just naturally fast, or did he know he had to really hustle?

Because here's the thing. If the act of mutilation itself was more important than anything, then a: it's a miracle he wasn't caught, and b: He was naturally fast, but he was a high risk taker. If the throat injuries were what he was after, then he was engaging in mutilation in his spare time. Lower priority, lower speed. If Eddowes face cuts were necessary in order for him to proceed, he did it quickly and first. If not, he saved it for last and likely spent even less time doing it. The only way he lingers over those cuts is if it was his priority, making nothing else he did all that important to him. People rush through preliminaries. They linger over priorities. It could be the majority of his time was spent butchering their throats, and the mutilations were fast and simple, based on curiosity. Or vice versa. Or the whole thing was rushed because it was solely for the benefit of the police. Or the whole thing was lingered over because he was painting a picture so to speak, and every part mattered.

But a guy who goes in knowing exactly what he will do, and which parts are important s going to be faster than the guy who decides to play as he goes.

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm well aware that all is not so congenial.

While a new poster I'm a long time follower.

GUT

[Damaso Marte]

The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims.

Why should we assume that doctors, trained to perform surgery with caution, preparation, and other considerations relevant to keeping the patient alive, should have that might insight into the "efficiency" of somebody who is cutting people open for a completely different reason, with very possibly a completely different background and education?

[Michael W Richards]

G'Day Michael

In my opinion you hit the nail on the head.

"The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims."

But it also SEEMS in Kelly's case and maybe the others as well that they might disregard the "Frenzy" factor. I have real problems with the estimate that Kelly took 2 hours (I stress opinion only) but opinion based on discussions with Forensic specialists.

"It was apparently also done with uncommon speed, or at a faster pace than a surgeon would traditionally work."


GUT

Youve made some good first posts Gut, and sorry I've neglected to welcome you.

There is little agreement here, or anywhere, on this issue of skill, but for me personally, I continue to use Annie Chapman's murder as the one to gauge what Jack the Ripper did. Its the one that spawned his name in the first place. And the opinions on the manner in which she was mutilated. Which implies I favor a man with some skill and knowledge as Jack..from Butcher to med student, or possibly, a surgeon.

If that murder is the one we can measure his abilities by....then what effect would stress, timing, illness...have on those abilities to better explain later murders, and can we say by what was done to Annie that we have a basis for a rough profile? Something to better measure the circumstantial evidence by....since the medical evidence is controversial.

My feeling is yes obviously, and thats why I favor a greatly reduced size of Canonical Group...from 2 to 3 victims by the same lone guy. Which to me makes this a fascinating subject.....trying to solve the probable exclusions.

Enjoy...and know that many discussions dont always take on this kind of congenial tone.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

In my opinion you hit the nail on the head.

"The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims."

But it also SEEMS in Kelly's case and maybe the others as well that they might disregard the "Frenzy" factor. I have real problems with the estimate that Kelly took 2 hours (I stress opinion only) but opinion based on discussions with Forensic specialists.

"It was apparently also done with uncommon speed, or at a faster pace than a surgeon would traditionally work."


GUT

[Michael W Richards]

HOW FAST WAS JtR

G'Day All

Back to the original question. How long is a piece of string! Doesn't this depend on what experience and skill set he had? Doesn't it also depend on how desperate he was? And in any event isn't speed comparative, ie what I think is quick you might think is sloooooooow!!

GUT

You bring up a couple of significant issues....evidence of skill and knowledge, evidence that speed was a factor. The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims.

There is little doubt that the pronouncement on the skill and knowledge the killer employed when murdering Annie Chapman was that he could well have had medical training. The investigation slants towards that premise immediately after Annies death. Some agree with that, some not, but it is the documented position. It was apparently also done with uncommon speed, or at a faster pace than a surgeon would traditionally work. The senior investigators sought out information on several medical students as potential suspects. Keeping that in mind, remember that both Polly and Annie had usually deep throat cuts

Now....are the wounds to Kate Eddowes in keeping with that level of expertise, or were they compromised by haste, assuming Lawende did indeed see Kate at 1:35am? Is there any indication in the mess that is room 13 that Marys killer had any of those 2 attributes? Can we see skill beyond knowing that a deep throat cut kills in the murder of Liz Stride?

I think the most contentious topic is "Where is skill displayed?" in the discussion of these cases, and the answer is likely the most important when assessing how many women were killed by the same lone man.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

And only two ladies had missing body parts.

Lynn,

Which of Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly are you discounting? Kelly?

"The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent"

Are you saying the heart was absent from the pericardium but not from the room?

[GUT]

HOW FAST WAS JtR

G'Day All

Back to the original question. How long is a piece of string! Doesn't this depend on what experience and skill set he had? Doesn't it also depend on how desperate he was? And in any event isn't speed comparative, ie what I think is quick you might think is sloooooooow!!

GUT

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda.

"I don't understand why there is any doubt about these crimes being done by the same hand."

You might have a go at the inquest reports. Real eye opener.

And only two ladies had missing body parts.

Cheers.
LC

I'm aware of the missing body parts and who had what removed. I am also familiar with the inquest reports. Three of the ladies were eviscerated, one had deep cuts across the abdomen and Stride just had her throat cut.
There is nothing to suggest that they were not done by the same person but anything is possible and I'm sure people have their own opinions on it. I just think that it seems unlikely to me that there was more than one who had the stomach to do this. In the case of Stride it may be possible that someone else did it but it seems a terrible coincidence, then, that on the very same night there were two men out there, within walking distance of one another, cutting women's throats.
I'm a newbie and no expert on the subject but I can understand that people who know better have different vibes and feelings on the case. I just thought I'd put my tuppenny worth in.
What I do find astonishing is the little time the Ripper needed to accomplish his deeds, and in very poor light too. He must have been a butcher or something similar to know where all the organs were and, if his daily job was eviscerating animals for the meat trade, that may explain why and how he did it so fast.

[lynn cates]

sample size

Hello DLDW. Hmm, insufficient sample size?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

enhancing understanding

Hello Amanda.

"I don't understand why there is any doubt about these crimes being done by the same hand."

You might have a go at the inquest reports. Real eye opener.

And only two ladies had missing body parts.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Errata.

You are on point. I usually refer to it as intuition. But it can be refined and made fairly reliable. I guess one of my points was that it is important to make sure the distinction is always made when reasoning. To remember where the lines are once they begin to blur. So to speak.

[Bridewell]

Time Parameters

However you need to modify the possible start point, since at 1am she is just being released and still a few minutes walk to her murder location.

Thanks Michael. I used the 1am time as it is the first point at which Eddowes might have encountered her killer. Obviously the murder couldn't have occurred that early but the encounter could have begun at that time. I take the point though - she couldn't have been murdered that early.

[Bridewell]

It was a crude job, to say the least. The whole Kelly "operation" could easily have been finished in under 30 minutes, in my estimation.

There's an old posting where I show my workings-out here: http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...25&postcount=2

Thanks for posting that, Sam. I too have always entertained a degree of scepticism about the two hours supposedly necessary for inflicting the Kelly injuries.

[Errata]

It is 3 degrees f here so my brain is a little bit frozen. If there was more than one individual who commited, specifically the mutilation murders, they were indeed sick if not sicker than say Nichol's and Chapman's murderers. There is another option, though it sounds fanciful. Someone acting upon orders or something along those lines. That's about the only thing I can really come up with as far as some one who was not just as sick. I have a hard time in believing in the, as example, Barnett killed "MJK" then made it look like a Ripper murder theory. I respect it as a possibility, however, it is an extremely unlikely possibility. The idea of a singular killer is the highest possibility, unfortunately it is not so high as to have great distance from other options. Long winded this morning. I'm shutting up now. Sorry for any derailing. Great thread.

And where a lot of this case veers off the regimen of logic when we run out of facts is essentially, vibe. Everyone looks at these murders and get a certain vibe. This looks cold and calculating. This looks angry. This looks frenzied. Base on our vibe we assign an emotional quality to the murders that we can in no way quantify. We try, but we just can't. Neither could the investigators and doctor's of the day.

But not everybody gets the same vibe off of every murder. For example, I can look at Annie Chapman and Kate Eddowes and see the same thing. I can look at Polly Nichols and see how it could relate to Chapman and Eddowes. I look at Stride, and I see something... less than Chapman and Eddowes (not in terms of mutilation. More like emotion or intent). I look at Mary Kelly and I see more. More emotion. More intent. Just more. Chapman,Eddowes and even Nichols make me wonder. It feels like a puzzle. Kind of standard really. Stride makes me sad, like it was for nothing. Like it was an execution. Kelly creeps me out. I see it as personal. I see her as knowing her killer but not knowing why this was happening. I see it like the woman who had acid thrown in her face because she didn't notice some guy. It's scary.

And yet I have absolutely nothing to back up these emotional responses. There's no evidence. No statement. It's a gut feeling. A vibe. I've worked with serial killers, I've worked with a lot of murder scene photographs. I don't ignore my vibes because my old boss told me not to. I don't count on them being correct for the same reason. But I see something different in these murders. Lynn does as well. He sees something different than what I see. And we can probably both whip out statements and statistics to support our views, but in the end it's a vibe. A gut feeling. Can't prove it.

It's like being in the middle of say, the Gobi desert. And there is a signpost with an arrow pointing and a word on it. We don't know the language. I am sure that it is a town name, because every arrow like that I've ever seen has had a name on it. Lynn thinks it says "North" because it's pointing north. You think it says water, because whats the one thing you need in a desert? We all have valid arguments. Any one of us could easily be right. We could follow and find a town with water to the north. All of us are right. But the sign only says one thing, and we will never know what that was. Logic only gets us so far. Vibe only gets us so far. The rest is projection, and that's all we will ever have.