How Fast An Operator Was JtR?

[GUT]

G'Day again Amanda

And of course we had the Torso Killer operating as a Serial Killer in the same area at the same time. Sometimes coincidence is the answer.

GUT

[Amanda Sumner]

Thank you for that information Michael Richards. I shall bear that in mind in any future posts that I write.
It's a good thing that there are people in the know that can teach us newbies a thing or two!
I just felt that it was unlikely to have been two knife wielding fiends walking the streets on that same night.
Clearly, I'm wrong!

[Michael W Richards]

There were 3 women killed by slit throat on the night of the Double Event, 2 were cut once and one was cut in a manner consistent with the wounds Jack inflicts. A Mr Brown slit his wifes throat that night.

I think it should be mentioned that looking for murders of women shouldnt be limited to only the ones committed with knives, or only women whose throats were cut. I can tell you that there were plenty of solved assaults that year that involved cutting or stabbing with knives, men and women, and the knife is easily the most accessible weapon to anyone in the East End at that time...they can be stolen...as the one in Kates pocket may have been..they can be purchased cheaply, and many people used them for work.

Jack the Ripper wasnt the only man carrying a knife, and he wasnt the only man that cut throats, he was the only man who was never identified that was suspected of cutting 5 womens throats to kill them and then mutilating 4 of them. There are lots of assaults with knives.....I think it would be prudent to limit Jacks involvement to ones that have the signature postmortem mutilation feature....something we believe only 2 killers at that time did....Jack, and the Torso maker.

There is nothing to eliminate the possibility that one or more of the murders may have features that were replicated from previous unsolved cases, and there is nothing known to eliminate a common street killer from the Stride murder.

Ive seen statistics that quote the number of unsolved murders of women by slit throat, and Ive seen stats that list all the murders of 1888 in London...of which the East End is responsible for about 1/3 that year. Ive seen stats that cover the murders by knife. Knife assaults were not only regular occurrences they were almost daily events. People brandishing knives in front of others, threatening to stab or cut someone, people like Leather Apron stalking the streets carrying a few of them.

Get over the knife feature of the murders....its a common weapon for that place and time and we can say empirically that there were many people aside from Jack that carried them and were willing to use them.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Amanda

Actually three women were killed by knife. If I recall correctly the other woman's throat was also slit. By her husband. For clarity, those numbers are for the whole of England. Going off of memory. If I got any of that wrong, someone please correct me.

[Amanda Sumner]

Thank you Digalittledeeperwatson!

So very low numbers really, when you consider the population in that area.
So if 17 were murdered by knife in '88 over the whole year, then 2 in one night must have been very uncommon. It at least supports my belief that the same person killed Stride and Eddowes.
Anything is possible, of course, and I may be wrong.

I do think that the Ripper, btw, had to have taken longer to do the ghastly deeds on Eddowes than the few minutes that were afforded him, if indeed, Eddowes was seen with a man barely 10 minutes before.
Of course, I could be wrong there, too!

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Sorry, I should have said, and meant, records of the numbers, or better still the methods of murders in that area in the year 1887 and 1888.
I just think that 2 murders, both by cutting the throat, are far more likely to have been done by the same person. The police certainly thought so at the time.
It could not have been that common for the police to find women lying in the street with their throats cut.

Number of women murdered by knife in England

1887- 11
1888- 17
1889- 11

If I recall correctly for a couple years before and after it is around double digits. It isn't anything conclusive. An increase or decrease of 2-4 victims a year would be well in range of being normal I think. Six is definitely high. Definitely something going on out of the usual. But I think we all already knew that.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

Statistics tells us of the past; probability, of the future.

Logic deals with facts and inferences about them.

Cheers.
LC

Sorry, I should have said, and meant, records of the numbers, or better still the methods of murders in that area in the year 1887 and 1888.
I just think that 2 murders, both by cutting the throat, are far more likely to have been done by the same person. The police certainly thought so at the time.
It could not have been that common for the police to find women lying in the street with their throats cut.

[lynn cates]

statistics

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

Statistics tells us of the past; probability, of the future.

Logic deals with facts and inferences about them.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Ah.

That accounts for the time. Thanks Jon Guy.

Errata, that seems quite reasonable. I tend to think that the murderer would allow some time for the blood to drain from the body to reduce mess when ripping and removing the organs and finish off the actual expiration of life without any struggle. Also reducing mess.

[Errata]

My estimates for the length of attack times for all the Whitechapel murder victims, whoever killed them.

Smith - 2 mins
Tabram - 5 mins
Nichols - 3 mins
Chapman - 4 mins
Stride - 1 min
Eddowes - 4 mins
Kelly - 20 mins
Mylett - 1 min
McKenzie - 2 mins
Torso - 3 hrs
Coles - 1 min

While I think the C5 mutilations happened quickly, I do believe they happened when the women were dead. I mean, really dead not just unconscious or dying. Cutting into someone who is still living causes a whole bunch of reactions that simply don't seem to be present. Generally in deaths related to a lack of oxygen to the brain (either through asphyxia or lack of oxygenated blood) death occurs in around four minutes. A person can be revived after that, but in cases not involving hypothermia the brain has already started to die, and there's no recovery without severe damage. Thats the point at which unconscious movement, reflex, and autonomic functions stop. No electrical activity. That's the point I think we are looking at.

In the case of Jack the Ripper, I think that point is pretty easy to identify. The victims breathing would have stopped, which he would have been able to hear because she was choking on blood, the blood flow would have decreased from the throat wound, and she would have stopped jerking. It's a traumatic death. The body reacts to the trauma even after loss of consciousness.

Also the uterus is really not the easiest thing to get at. Even when you know where it is. There is some groping about the find the appropriate connections.

There is no reason any of these mutilations had to take more than 10 minutes, but I think they did have to take at least six minutes. Four for death, two for opening the abdomen and taking an organ. And he would have to know where the uterus was. Or have the ability to find it quickly, but thats my pet theory and not really applicable here. At least six minutes. But more than ten is him just being a tourist.

On the other hand, not knowing what drove him means we don't know what he might fixate on. There is always an element of obsessive behavior in any serial killer. If the guy gets all dreamy and lost staring at innards, it might have taken quite a bit longer. There is a difference between how fast can a person do this and how fast did THIS person did this. Just like I CAN eat a burger in under a minute, but I like to take my time, chew, not vomit, all of that.. so I don't eat a burger in under a minute.

[Jon Guy]

Why so long for Tabram? 39 stabs in 5 minutes seems lengthy.

He possibly had to strangle her, and 39 stabs is a lot of hard work - hence he later ripped them !!!

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

My estimates for the length of attack times for all the Whitechapel murder victims, whoever killed them.

Smith - 2 mins
Tabram - 5 mins
Nichols - 3 mins
Chapman - 4 mins
Stride - 1 min
Eddowes - 4 mins
Kelly - 20 mins
Mylett - 1 min
McKenzie - 2 mins
Torso - 3 hrs
Coles - 1 min

Might Nichols and Chapman have taken longer due to the apparent? choking/strangulation? Also, something to consider is bleed out time and in the case of Stride and Eddowes, if no strangulation or other such tactic was employed, the restraining of the victim till they were no longer able to move. Just some other potetional factors to consider if they were not already. All in all not bad estimations on some quick work. Thanks.
Why so long for Tabram? 39 stabs in 5 minutes seems lengthy.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Doesn't this presuppose that her killer knew how much time he had? In a busy court behind an unlocked door, I don't see how he can have done.

Maybe he was comfortable with the scenario due to knowledge of the circumstances. If it was late/early, and aware the occupant lived alone he might have not been quite as concerned compared to being on the street. Also, with the setup of the room he could've had advantage against any interlopers. Still presupposing, but enough maybe to warrant not such a fevered pace as being on the streets completely exposed. Although being outdoors provides the advantage of being unbound. Oh, wait, unlocked door?

[Bridewell]

Two hours is not unfeasible in the case of Kelly, the killer had her all to himself during those long dark hours of the night, but he probably could have achieved all that in far less time if he wanted to, but I think he lingered and enjoyed that one.

Doesn't this presuppose that her killer knew how much time he had? In a busy court behind an unlocked door, I don't see how he can have done.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

"In the case of Stride it may be possible that someone else did it but it seems a terrible coincidence, then, that on the very same night there were two men out there, within walking distance of one another, cutting women's throats."

Actually, over in Westminster (2 miles from Kate) Mrs. Brown had HER throat cut as well. Coincidences DO happen.

"There is nothing to suggest that they were not done by the same person. . ."

Nothing at all?

Polly and Annie had deep, parallel neck cuts; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had facial bruising; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had lacerated/protruding tongues; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had abdominal cuts ALL downward; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had no cut clothing; not Kate.

So perhaps there IS evidence of disparity?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You are right, there is evidence of disparity, but if our Jack had just got to the throat cutting stage and had to abandon then there would be no other marks on Kate.
I'm trying to find the murder statistics of that area for 1888 and also the year before. The point is, how common was it for people to die on the street by having their throat cut?

Lechmere : It would have taken far longer than 5 minutes, in my opinion, to have done that amount of damage to Eddowes.
Two hours is not unfeasible in the case of Kelly, the killer had her all to himself during those long dark hours of the night, but he probably could have achieved all that in far less time if he wanted to, but I think he lingered and enjoyed that one.