Was JtR a necrophile?

[John G]

The torso murders are freaking me out the more I think about it.

To me its just as bizarre, scary and sensational as the ripper murders.
They seem to all be from the same hand and spanning a long time frame-going back all the way to the mid 1870s I believe?

Does anyone know what year the last known torso victim was?

Hi Abby,

I believe that Trow concluded that there could have been as many as eight victims. The first was the Battersea Mystery in 1873, the last the Pinchin Street Torso in 1889.

[RockySullivan]

Didn't Lusk also do work on the hospital?

I believe so gut didn't his son/grandson say he was involved w London hospital?

While the frankencorpse is possible I don't see it as a likely scenario. However because the whitehall torso was full of maggots he did hold on to it for sometime. So where was it stored? Who knows how long it was actually in the vault. I wish we could find a record of the worker who was questioned and admitted to being there the time of the alleged sighting of the workers with parcel. How can we look into the backgrounds of the workers who kept their tools in the vault like John Lawrence of battersea?

[RockySullivan]

The torso murders are freaking me out the more I think about it.

To me its just as bizarre, scary and sensational as the ripper murders.
They seem to all be from the same hand and spanning a long time frame-going back all the way to the mid 1870s I believe?

Does anyone know what year the last known torso victim was?

The torso murders do freak me about quite a bit more than the rippings. Especially that baby in the pickle jar which adds a whole new dimension

[John G]

Torso Murders.

Possible victims of the Torso Murderer: The Battersea Mystery, September, 1873; Putney, June 1874; The Girl with the Rose Tattoo: Tottenham Court Road, October, 1884; Rainham, May, 1887; Elizabeth Jackson, June 1888; Whitehall (Scotland Yard) Mystery, October, 1888; Pinchin Street, September, 1889. Trow believes all of these murders to be connected to the same killer. Interestingly, Pinchin Street was just 100 yards from Berner Street.

What is unfortunate is that there are very few books on the subject, unlike JtR. There is also a dearth of information from official sources; Trow mentions that he was going to devote an entire chapter on the Putney Torso, but details on this mystery are virtually non-existent.

[RockySullivan]

Wow the 1884 torso is very interesting thanks John. The disposal is similar to others but there are some unique aspects. This time the skull was found, albeit without hair and wrapped in newspaper. I believe the torso was wrapped up in a parcel but it was covered in bleaching powder. The internal organs were removed. Who would have access to that powder disinfectant in 1884? This case is of most interest as it fills one space in the gap between the early torsos and the the later.

Edit: from a post by Natasha in the similar crimes thread: (remarkable similarity with 1884 skull and eddowes facial mutilations!)

Aberystwyth Observer 8th November 1884

HORRIBLE MURDER AND MUTILATION IN LONDON. The divisional surgeon of police (Dr. Lloyd), and the other medical gentlemen associated with him, have finished their post mortem examination of the human head found by the dustmen in Alfred-mews, and also some of the other portions picked up in Bedford square and Fitzroy-square respectively and they have communicated to the police authorities that the appearances all point to the supposition of murder, and that the most extraordinary precautions have been taken for the purpose of destroying identification. The police state that the medical examination shows that the eyes have been taken out of the head. The form of the mouth has been disfigured by a large cut through the cheek, and the nose with part of the cartilage has been cut off. They incline to the opinion that the mutilation took place soon after death from the general appearance of all the parts and the uniform characteristics of them. They also believe that the body was cut up into rather small parts, and that the parts were packed in something small soon after life was extinct, for all the pieces are flattened as though they had been laid one upon the other and compressed down in a quantity of carbolic acid. Inspector Langrish and Detective-sergeant Rowan have been instituting inquiries in the districts where the remains have been found, but without any satisfactory result at present.

All in all is say torso was not necessarily a necrophile and it's more likely he liked to cut up and mutilate, (piquerist?). But what went on between death and the mutilations? The above report indicates the mutilations took place soon after death which is in line with the ripper murders. Another interesting note is that the whitehall torso was badly decomposed. Torso may have had to dispose of it because he no longer had a place to keep it safely...thus the ripper murders are explained.

[Errata]

I have given this some thought and I think he didn't and here is why. Cannibals of the serial killer type in western urban settings usually just want friends. If the person seems to be leaving them, they consume them so that the person becomes part of them, forever. The other type is eating them to be in complete control over the victim. The think the latter is rare and that JtR would have seen these prostitutes as just waste he can do anything with, so I don't think he would value them high enough to want to consume them.

I don't know what sort of corpse he is keeping and renewing with harvested organs, but it has to be a sexual object, because he is harvesting sexual parts.

Why did he leave some sexual parts behind, like a breast for example? Maybe because he had some already from the torso murders (breasts are cut out too, just like MJK). He doesn't need the whole body, just the parts he wants.

There is fetishism without paraphilia. When we think of fetishes we think sex. Always do. But in fact most fetishes aren't sexual. They are sensory or memorial. So a paraphilia is (to paraphrase) any sex act that is ruining your life. Anything that causes dysfunction, whether it be the inability to otherwise enjoy sex, become housebound, become violent, etc. That can be whips and chains, it can be partialism, it can be amputees, it can simply be needed too much or too little sex... the list is very long and very unsettling. I've said it before, worst research paper ever.

But take hair for example. People have hair fetishes. They want to touch hair, brush it, they get slapped for doing it, it's a real problem.
I had a friend who had it and it was super annoying. And when she touched your hair or even her own hair, it created an intense feeling of pleasure. Here eyes would glaze over, her jaw would go slack. Frankly it looked sexual. But it wasn't. She came from a nightmare family and the only time her mother paid attention to her was when she brushed her hair at night. And it feels good when someone brushes your hair, but it's also the only time she felt safe or loved. In truth she was neither, but she was a kid, she didn't know that. She is a super anxious person. But when she touches hair it soothes her. It makes her feel safe. And it's a huge burden that lifts, and almost orgasmic release of tension and fear. And brushing or stroking hair is how she expresses friendship and love. Because of her childhood, this is the tool she has to cope with most things. And it's not an uncommon fetish, but the particular group she went to was for paraphilias, an this was not a paraphilia. She hates her hair being touched during sex. This is a memorial fetish. It represents something, it was a soothing behavior to a child, and it still is. It's a problem, but it has nothing to do with sex. Its just weird to have an adult wanting to touch you hair, so it hurts her socially.

And then look at Gein. You ever met somebody who you were certain was gay and they just weren't? The voice, the behavior, the mannerisms, the dress. Everything screams "gay", they just didn't have that last little thing of actually being gay? Gein is that with cannibalism. If you were to run down the list of cannibal behaviors, traits, fetishes, etc, Gein would tick every one. He does tick every single one. He just didn't eat anyone to the best of anyone's knowledge. And the reason for that is that he was fetishizing human flesh. Just like a cannibal does. But it wasn't particularly sexual (though I'm sure a good amount of curiosity was involved), and it wasn't possessive, and it wasn't controlling. It also was not a paraphilia. He was trying to become a woman, or more specifically his mother. He wasn't eating the flesh, he was wearing it. He could transform with parts of women. Especially the sexual parts, not because of sex the act, but sex the gender. Breasts, vulvas, etc. were what he lacked. So he needed those the most. But not to arouse himself or to masturbate, that we know of (there's a lot we don't know, so I'm hedging my bets) but to feel like a woman. It was a sensory fetish. It was a memorial fetish. He was doing this to feel like a woman, to preserve his mother. And he was not transgender in any traditional sense. He was simply so abused and so brainwashed by his lunatic mother that he was convinced that she was the only person without sin. There was no other way to save himself than to be her. He was probably irredeemable. He was so damaged that he never could have been okay.

The Torso killer is choosing some pretty nontraditional victims. Even serial killers avoid killing pregnant women when they can. Not for any real moral reason, but because a pregnancy contaminates these women to a lot of killers. The have a specific fantasy and the fetus ruins it. And some do avoid it out of guilt. They aren't all psychopaths. Not this guy. And he has a weird sense of humor. Not just the baby in a jar although that is especially warped. But the way he scatters remains is unnecessary. He's likely not killing them where he lives, so the nearest water access should do. Even if they find the murder scene, it's most likely not connected to him. Why chuck body parts over fences, or into the underbrush, and then send some down the river from different points? He's apparently wandering the district with body parts getting rid of them randomly, some for finding some for hiding, and it's unnecessary. Mocking even. This seems like a game to him. But if it's a game, what are the odds that there is some deep underlying psychological need for certain body parts? If he has fetishized a corpse to the point that he is trying to make her whole, that's serious business. That corpse and this task are the most important thing in the world to him. And it's happened before. And those guys were not screwing around. He may be collecting sex organs because it's more shocking, which kinda goes with the theme. He may be simply dedicated to getting a complete set of something for some kind of reward, like Gein and his woman suit. He could be eating it, he could be tanning tuff and turning bits into a wallet, he could be feeding it to dogs.

We have no idea really, but people with fetishes and paraphilias take them seriously. They can kill for them, which is why it is a psychiatric disorder in the first place. Necrophilia is not a joke to a necrophiliac. It's not about fun and games. It's as serious as a meth addict trying to score. So the only way someone with a fetish or paraphilia plays games is after they get what they wanted. When the burden lifts. So whatever drove this killer, he got when he killed them. The dismemberment and disposal was just a game at that point. He already had what he wanted, and I doubt it was an organ in his pocket. He wouldn't have felt the relief until he had done what he needed to do. Ate it, masturbated with it, plugged it into an incomplete corpse, whatever. So I don't think it had anything to do with the missing organs. They may just be missing. I think he relaxed after he killed her. And maybe that can be explained by necrophilia, which he could have done immediately, but anything that requires him to wait to get the relief, I think it's out. His general weirdness after the actual murders does not indicate a man driven by immediate all consuming need.

[Batman]

Interesting.

I still think he is harvesting fresh sexual organs for a corpse he is maintaining. When the parts are too rotten he bags them and dumps them in the Thames, Whitehall, etc. The more I am reading Torso related material the more I realize that the experts there believe JtR is one and the same as the torso killer. I don't think heads have been found in some cases so it seems he keeps those. It would all be farfeched if it wasn't for the fact we have a history of lust killers doing some whacked out stuff.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I believe that Trow concluded that there could have been as many as eight victims. The first was the Battersea Mystery in 1873, the last the Pinchin Street Torso in 1889.

ceasing at around the same time the ripper murders did. Hmmmmm

[Abby Normal]

The torso murders do freak me about quite a bit more than the rippings. Especially that baby in the pickle jar which adds a whole new dimension

Pickled babies?!?Im going to have nightmares.

Ive never heard about that before-care to expound?

[John G]

ceasing at around the same time the ripper murders did. Hmmmmm

Hi Abby,

Pinchin Street was just a quarter of a mile from the river, which may support my argument that the killer was using a boat for transportation/dismemberment purposes. What's even more interesting is that Pinchin Street was also just 100 yards from Berner Street!

[Batman]

Hi Abby,

Pinchin Street was just a quarter of a mile from the river, which may support my argument that the killer was using a boat for transportation/dismemberment purposes. What's even more interesting is that Pinchin Street was also just 100 yards from Berner Street!

Did Schwartz describe the area in his escape?

[lynn cates]

I do

Hello Errata.

"So a paraphilia is (to paraphrase) any sex act that is ruining your life. Anything that causes dysfunction, whether it be the inability to otherwise enjoy sex, become housebound . . . etc."

Good heavens! You've described married life. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Did Schwartz describe the area in his escape?

Yes, I believe the railway arch that he ran to was on Pinchin Street.

[Batman]

Yes, I believe the railway arch that he ran to was on Pinchin Street.

I thought that was the connection. Thanks.

[RockySullivan]

Pickled babies?!?Im going to have nightmares.

Ive never heard about that before-care to expound?

I think errata first brought this to my attention in a thread on this sub forum not sure which one. The fetus in the jar was found in the thames around the same time as Jackson's pregnant torso yet doctors concluded it was not the missing baby. Explain that one? I tried doing some research but turned up Nary a mention at all. Torso may have kept the fetus as trophy or it ended up buried in some vault.

Errata good post. Do you think whitehall torso was left on purpose or intended to be buried? Not sure why it would have clippings if it was going to be buried. But why bury the limbs and leave torso? Again I think this was someone familiar with the vault and not someone who scoped out the place for dumping randomly.