Torsoman vs The Ripper

[FISHY1118]

It is also clear from your replies that your medication is not working

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Personal attacks will only get you banned, just like herlock . But hey, keep going you could use the break .

Judging by your lack of a relevant response, ill take that as I was right and you've been wasting everyone's time with your silly theory..

[Trevor Marriott]

Personal attacks will only get you banned, just like herlock . But hey, keep going you could use the break .

Judging by your lack of a relevant response, ill take that as I was right and you've been wasting everyone's time with your silly theory..

I don't need to respond to your misguided post there is only one of us that is right and it's not you and I will leave it at that

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FISHY1118]

I don't need to respond to your misguided post there is only one of us that is right and it's not you and I will leave it at that

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Only in your world ,not this one im afraid.

[Abby Normal]

In An Exercise in Forensic Medicine , Dr. Hebbert went as far as to conclude that her uterus (Rainham) "was that of a virgin"

marhaba debs and all

in the 4 torso cases, i put minimal to no weight into death caused by 'botched abortion'. Including the Pinchin case, the drs. had the female sex organs of 3 of the four women; and, there was nothing evident to the drs. to indicate a forced rupture or (with the exception of Elizabeth Jackson) recent impregnation.

i lean towards murder because every other consideration (at this point) seems too far-fetched to consider, which begs the question of the manner of murder. the doctors seemingly rule out drowning (no water in the lungs); in the cases where a complete torso was located, there aren't any fatal injuries to the trunk, such as stabbing; and, based on the condition of the heart, I doubt that she was strangled. In the Pinchin case, Dr. Hebbert concludes that "the immediate cause of death was syncope as shown by the condition of the heart, and the general bloodlessness of the tissues would indicate hemorhhage..."

...so that only leaves a fatal attack on her neck or her head. lately I am entertaining the suggestion that she may have suffered death by some type of blunt force trauma to her skull, such as being struck by a heavy object or gunshot.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
as for noticing similarities to the Ripper murders:

1. there's the removal of the intestines
2. there's indication of removal of a "wedding ring"
3. there's indication of cutting around the umbilicus
4. there's an incision running from below the ensiform cartilage to the genitalia
5. in addition, there's a macabre focus on the organs

yes. good post robert. and i agree, i think the torsos probably killed by cut throat and or blunt force trauma to the head. and the rippers victims all died more than likely by strangulation and cut throat, bit there is also evidence to include blunt force trauma in tje rippers victims. there is nothing to preclude that the two series victims were all killed in basically the same way.

[John Wheat]

yes. good post robert. and i agree, i think the torsos probably killed by cut throat and or blunt force trauma to the head. and the rippers victims all died more than likely by strangulation and cut throat, bit there is also evidence to include blunt force trauma in tje rippers victims. there is nothing to preclude that the two series victims were all killed in basically the same way.

What evidence is there that there is blunt force trauma in the Ripper victims deaths?

[Abby Normal]

What evidence is there that there is blunt force trauma in the Ripper victims deaths?

hi john
tabram and i beleive one or two more i cant remember, and im on vaca and dont have access to all my stuff. but i beleive stride had bruising to her shoulder too.

[John Wheat]

hi john
tabram and i beleive one or two more i cant remember, and im on vaca and dont have access to all my stuff. but i beleive stride had bruising to her shoulder too.

Okay fair enough thanks Abby.

[Robert St Devil]

So where are the causes of death to be able to conclude murder, there was no evidence produced at any of the coroner's court hearings to prove murder, and in some cases, a verdict of simply found dead was brought in. If you are going to postulate murder then you have to have not only a motive but a cause of death.

You need to read up on the activities of body dealers in 1888

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras

i will consider your theory, trevor, as i find that your contrarian postulations can cause an argumentative person to reassess "the facts", which can be incidentally enlightening.

as for cause of death...
i instantly rule out natural causes. these victims were young women (aged 25 to 40) with strong bodies and healthy organs; highly doubtful that they met their fate at the hands of advanced age or biological causes.

i rule out "botched abortion". Dr. Hebbert determined that the 1887 victim had recently menstruated; services of an abortionist obviously unrequired. {And, with observations such as prominent rugae, absence of linae albae & unruptured fourchette, I'd shade that the doctor was actively looking for fatal mishaps from childbirth, child-bearing, and (possibly) abortion.}

the aspect of dismemberment, & disposal is a strong indicator of foul-play. the serial frequency of the torso victims (3 or 4 women in two years) intensifies the aspect of foul-play. so, i feel comfortable if i underline MURDER as the most likely cause of death.

it doesn't appear that any of the women were poisoned. those women whose entire torsos were found... well now, there didn't seem to be any evidence of physical harm or destruction to their body that may have caused their death. And, in the cases where a majority of the vital organs were found... again, there wasn't the appearance of puncture wounds, stab wounds, or any other types of piercings that may have caused their death. also, there was no evidence of clot in the heart to suggest strangulation.

that only leaves some fatal injury caused to the head or the neck.

as for motive...
I have the candlestick; i have the conservatory; but, without knowing if the murderer is Colonel Mustard or Professor Plum, there's not much that I can offer up in the way of a motive. However, in years, I have become rather base about motive because: 1) there's no one left to confess to it; and, 2) in the 150 years of these serial cases, has there ever been a confessed motive that was satisfying to anyone... other than a psychologist?

[Trevor Marriott]

i rule out "botched abortion". Dr. Hebbert determined that the 1887 victim had recently menstruated; services of an abortionist obviously unrequired. {And, with observations such as prominent rugae, absence of linae albae & unruptured fourchette, I'd shade that the doctor was actively looking for fatal mishaps from childbirth, child-bearing, and (possibly) abortion.}

Are you medical expert to be able to give an opinion on medical topics, and I think your facts are wrong on this torso the nquest testimony does not show what you describe. "Decomposition had taken place in water and some months had elapsed since death"


the aspect of dismemberment, & disposal is a strong indicator of foul-play. the serial frequency of the torso victims (3 or 4 women in two years) intensifies the aspect of foul-play. so, i feel comfortable if i underline MURDER as the most likely cause of death.

That is just your opinion which you are entitled to give

it doesn't appear that any of the women were poisoned. those women whose entire torsos were found... well now, there didn't seem to be any evidence of physical harm or destruction to their body that may have caused their death. And, in the cases where a majority of the vital organs were found... again, there wasn't the appearance of puncture wounds, stab wounds, or any other types of piercings that may have caused their death. also, there was no evidence of clot in the heart to suggest strangulation.

that only leaves some fatal injury caused to the head or the neck. ;

and that cannot be proved or disproved without the heads, and in the absence of being able to prove a cause of death it is wrong to draw such an inference of murder when there is another alternative

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[Debra A]

Robert...you have saved me so much repetitive typing ...and you can spell Hebbert!

[Robert St Devil]

Are you medical expert

I spent the course of a lifetime 'catching hell' from a pair of parents for NOT becoming a doctor, marriott, i don't need the forum 'rubbing it in my face' too. To answer your question: no, i am, in fact, NOT a medical expert; i am, however, a military man and a freelance plagiarist.

Now Dr. Ch. A. Hebbert did write in An Exercise In Forensic Medicine that:

[The Rainham victim] had recently menstruated

as well as writing:

one [of her ovaries] showed the corpus luteum of menstruation

I may NOT be a so-called "medical expert" regarding the female reproductive system; however; I do understand the connection between menstrual cycles and pregnancy after having 30 years of personal experiences from nail-biting anxieties whenever my girlfriend told me that she was "late".

...and you can spell Hebbert!

"Hebbert" is easy, debsie ;
it's Diem*****z that's a real kick in the boll***s

[DJA]

[Trevor Marriott]

I spent the course of a lifetime 'catching hell' from a pair of parents for NOT becoming a doctor, marriott, i don't need the forum 'rubbing it in my face' too. To answer your question: no, i am, in fact, NOT a medical expert; i am, however, a military man and a freelance plagiarist.

Now Dr. Ch. A. Hebbert did write in An Exercise In Forensic Medicine that:

[The Rainham victim] had recently menstruated

as well as writing:

one [of her ovaries] showed the corpus luteum of menstruation

I may NOT be a so-called "medical expert" regarding the female reproductive system; however; I do understand the connection between menstrual cycles and pregnancy after having 30 years of personal experiences from nail-biting anxieties whenever my girlfriend told me that she was "late".



"Hebbert" is easy, debsie ;
it's Diem*****z that's a real kick in the boll***s

Dr Hebbert said a lot of things in his book but some of it was hearsay.

Can you tell me how it could be determined by examination of a body that was in a state of decomposition that menstruation had been recent?

I quote from Dr Biggs a forensic pathologist who has studied the post mortem reports on these torsos

In case I, there is a comment about the uterus being that of a virgin. Whilst a uterus looks different once it has carried children, an ‘unused’ uterus from a virgin can look identical to that from an ‘experienced’ owner who has not had any children. It is also unclear why they have suggested that the individual may have been unable to conceive

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[Debra A]

Dr Hebbert said a lot of things in his book but some of it was hearsay.

Can you tell me how it could be determined by examination of a body that was in a state of decomposition that menstruation had been recent?

I quote from Dr Biggs a forensic pathologist who has studied the post mortem reports on these torsos

In case I, there is a comment about the uterus being that of a virgin. Whilst a uterus looks different once it has carried children, an ‘unused’ uterus from a virgin can look identical to that from an ‘experienced’ owner who has not had any children. It is also unclear why they have suggested that the individual may have been unable to conceive

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Hi Trevor,
I have been through the archives and counted at least eight occassions when it has been pointed out to you by various people that the term 'virigin uterus' was the term in use when a woman had not borne a child, not a comment on her sexual history. It has already been mentioned twice in this thread by R.J. Palmer and Robert St Devil!
Here is a link to one of my posts from 2016 with a Victorian Medical Text explaining why the word 'virgin' should be replaced with 'nulliparous' confirming that the Victorian doctors also knew that intercourse did not affect the anatomy of the uterus in any way, just as Dr Biggs knows. Dr Biggs obviously is not an expert on the history of medicine and the terms used. I am sure he would revise his opinion that this term has any bearing on the skill of the Victorian doctors if he has become aware of this point.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-forensics-forum/25336-forensic-comparisons?p=391890#post391890

Maybe it will be taken on board this time and finally scrapped from your repetoir of standard generalised replies?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,
I have been through the archives and counted at least eight occassions when it has been pointed out to you by various people that the term 'virigin uterus' was the term in use when a woman had not borne a child, not a comment on her sexual history. It has already been mentioned twice in this thread by R.J. Palmer and Robert St Devil!
Here is a link to one of my posts from 2016 with a Victorian Medical Text explaining why the word 'virgin' should be replaced with 'nulliparous' confirming that the Victorian doctors also knew that intercourse did not affect the anatomy of the uterus in any way, just as Dr Biggs knows. Dr Biggs obviously is not an expert on the history of medicine and the terms used. I am sure he would revise his opinion that this term has any bearing on the skill of the Victorian doctors if he has become aware of this point.

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-forensics-forum/25336-forensic-comparisons?p=391890#post391890

Maybe it will be taken on board this time and finally scrapped from your repertoire of standard generalised replies?

They are not standard generalised replies, they are replies which warrant serious consideration having regard to all the circumstances surrounding these torsos, but it seems you and several others seem hell bent on propping up murder mysteries for the torsos

In Victorian times doctor's knowledge and skills were limited as were the writings in the medical journals of the same time period. Over the years those skills and their anatomical knowledge have increased to the point where we are today.

As has been said before those Victorian doctors gave their opinions on what knowledge and experience they had attained at the time, which it would be fair to say was limited. So we have to respect the opinions of today's medical experts when they assess and evaluate and opine on the doctor's reports from 1888 give what is known today.

Sadly there are those who don't want to consider these modern-day expert's opinions despite those experts showing clearly and concisely why some of the Victorian doctor's opinions are now unsafe to rely on and not just in relation to the torsos but the WM as well.

Just to clarify I am not suggesting that every torso fished out of the river died as a result of back street medical procedure, but clearly, it is a historical fact that there was a significant number, and I am going to maintain my stance and say that most of the torsos fished out of the Thames during the period of time discussed did die as a result of some form of a back street medical procedure, especially as no specific causes of death could be established to prove an offence of murder, which as you know is a required ingredient to be able to prove a murder, and on that topic if a killer had murdered the victims and he wanted to dispose of the body why would he rip open the abdomens and take out organs, why not simply cut off the arms and the legs and head all body parts would then be much easier to dispose of

And reading back on the threads I see that there are others who are prepared to consider another alternative to murder.

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