Torsoman vs The Ripper

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby!

The conundrum for me, is the timings Dr. Hibbert and Bond give for the Whitehall victims death. Personally, I feel from all that we know, the Whitehall victim met her death on or about September 8th or 9th. But, that would contradict their findings to a degree. Dr. Neville, who examined the first body part at Pimlico (arm), was a qualified Police Divisional Surgeon just like Bond. He felt the arm had come from a body that would have been deceased about September 8th. On about September 16th, Dr. Hibbert examined the arm and came to a different conclusion from Dr. Neville.

I don't know if I'm making a big deal out of this or not, but, I think it's beyond coincidence that both Annie Chapman and the Pinchin torso were both murdered/determined to have died on that date. The Pinchin torso victim a year later, of course.

hi jerry
if the chapman, pinchin and whitehall were all murdered on the same date, then yes i beleive it would be beyond coincidence too! Does Sept 8 or 9 have any special significance for any suspects we know? say the date of Mr. Wildbore's birthday or the date of his mothers death for example?

[jerryd]

hi jerry
if the chapman, pinchin and whitehall were all murdered on the same date, then yes i beleive it would be beyond coincidence too! Does Sept 8 or 9 have any special significance for any suspects we know? say the date of Mr. Wildbore's birthday or the date of his mothers death for example?

Hi Abby.

No. Not that I am aware.

[jerryd]

I will say this though, the Pinchin Street torso was placed on land that was owned by the Board of Works and used for stone breaking. The Whitehall Police Offices were being built under the guidance of the Board of Works who oversaw its construction. The origination of several of the torso victims body parts (mainly Rainham and Elizabeth Jackson) were thought to be from or near the Albert Bridge. There was a stone yard in Battersea Park at the corner that butted up to Albert Bridge and the Thames. Battersea Park was managed by the Board of Works. I have also shown on a thread on this forum, locations of many of the Board of Works offices/land and their location to Ripper victims. Lusk was a vestryman for the Board of Works as well as a builder. So, a lot of connection to the BoW in both cases, in my opinion. Something I continue to look at with a close eye.

[Abby Normal]

I will say this though, the Pinchin Street torso was placed on land that was owned by the Board of Works and used for stone breaking. The Whitehall Police Offices were being built under the guidance of the Board of Works who oversaw its construction. The origination of several of the torso victims body parts (mainly Rainham and Elizabeth Jackson) were thought to be from or near the Albert Bridge. There was a stone yard in Battersea Park at the corner that butted up to Albert Bridge and the Thames. Battersea Park was managed by the Board of Works. I have also shown on a thread on this forum, locations of many of the Board of Works offices/land and their location to Ripper victims. Lusk was a vestryman for the Board of Works as well as a builder. So, a lot of connection to the BoW in both cases, in my opinion. Something I continue to look at with a close eye.

hi Jerry
i think you may me on to something. theres does seem to be a lot of connections to the BoW.

especially intriguing is lusks connection and he received the kidney. was a worker pissed at him?

[Garza]

Jack the Ripper was a lust killer, the torso killer was... well a torso killer. Two very different beasts psychologically as well as different mo's and signatures. The fact a torso was found in Whitechapel after the jack the ripper murders started actually makes me confident that I very much doubt they were the same murderer.

[Abby Normal]

Jack the Ripper was a lust killer, the torso killer was... well a torso killer. Two very different beasts psychologically as well as different mo's and signatures. The fact a torso was found in Whitechapel after the jack the ripper murders started actually makes me confident that I very much doubt they were the same murderer.

hi Garza
I hear ya! its my main issue with them being the same person too. on the face of it, it does seem like two totally different serial killers, despite all tje similarities. One is mainly and eviscerator and one is mainly a dismemberer.

But what if the main difference is based on the single killers circs? as in, the torso murders were when he had a chop shop available, and tje ripper killings were when he didnt and was forced to kill on the streets? it would explain alot, including, of course, the similarities.

[Debra A]

Thanks Abby!

The conundrum for me, is the timings Dr. Hibbert and Bond give for the Whitehall victims death. Personally, I feel from all that we know, the Whitehall victim met her death on or about September 8th or 9th. But, that would contradict their findings to a degree. Dr. Neville, who examined the first body part at Pimlico (arm), was a qualified Police Divisional Surgeon just like Bond. He felt the arm had come from a body that would have been deceased about September 8th. On about September 16th, Dr. Hibbert examined the arm and came to a different conclusion from Dr. Neville.

I don't know if I'm making a big deal out of this or not, but, I think it's beyond coincidence that both Annie Chapman and the Pinchin torso were both murdered/determined to have died on that date. The Pinchin torso victim a year later, of course.

Hi Jerry,
I think Dr Hebbert's lectures are a bit ambiguous on the dates of finding the arm, time in the water etc. . He writes that the arm was probably in the water for two to three weeks and gives the date of finding as the 16th September but later goes on to say that the trunk was found in the vault a'a couple of days later' but we know that was found on the 2nd October.

[Debra A]

I've read that some of these clandestine 'lying in' hospitals were quite posh. She dresses up like she's going out of town for a few days, so as not to arouse the suspicions of her snooping landlady, but travels to London and checks into a 'clinic.' The abortion is botched, and she ends up under Whitehall.

I'm not insisting that that is what happened, but with the uterus and pelvic area missing, it might be worth considering.

The question I keep asking myself, in defiance of this theory, is where is the missing person report?

This is also a scenario that I have considered many times but in most of the many cases of death after an abortion that I have read about, the women died from peritonitis or similar infections and days after they had travelled back home again, their friends and family none the wiser as to where they had been until they became ill and died. An 'illegal operation' did not involve surgery so the risks of immediate death would be pretty slim I would have thought, unless it was from severe immediate blood loss or poisoning.

To have three women of a similar age found dismembered (the trunk disected in to three in two of the cases which is apparently unusual in dismemberment cases) and their bodies disposed of in and around the same general area of Chelsea Reach within a couple of years of each other 1887-1889 is a rare occurence. I have never seen any similar 'cluster' of these cases documented anywhere else and I haven't seen anyone else report any. There seems to be a link between three of them, yet it cannot be abortion related as one of the women definitely was not pregnant (Rainham) I don't include Pinchin in the similar cases.
Dr Bond was involved with the Dr Gloster abortion trial in the death of Eliza Schumaker in 1888 ( he presented her damaged uterus to the Westminster Hospital Pathological Museum that Dr Hebbert was curator of at the time.) and other similar cases and as far as is documented, Bond finally concluded against death from an 'illegal operation' in the case of Elizabeth Jackson after first suspecting that was the case as reported in the press, based probably on the fact that Elizabeth's damaged uterus, placenta and abdominal flaps were found alone in the first parcel found at Horsleydown.

[Abby Normal]

This is also a scenario that I have considered many times but in most of the many cases of death after an abortion that I have read about, the women died from peritonitis or similar infections and days after they had travelled back home again, their friends and family none the wiser as to where they had been until they became ill and died. An 'illegal operation' did not involve surgery so the risks of immediate death would be pretty slim I would have thought, unless it was from severe immediate blood loss or poisoning.

To have three women of a similar age found dismembered (the trunk disected in to three in two of the cases which is apparently unusual in dismemberment cases) and their bodies disposed of in and around the same general area of Chelsea Reach within a couple of years of each other 1887-1889 is a rare occurence. I have never seen any similar 'cluster' of these cases documented anywhere else and I haven't seen anyone else report any. There seems to be a link between three of them, yet it cannot be abortion related as one of the women definitely was not pregnant (Rainham) I don't include Pinchin in the similar cases.
Dr Bond was involved with the Dr Gloster abortion trial in the death of Eliza Schumaker in 1888 ( he presented her damaged uterus to the Westminster Hospital Pathological Museum that Dr Hebbert was curator of at the time.) and other similar cases and as far as is documented, Bond finally concluded against death from an 'illegal operation' in the case of Elizabeth Jackson after first suspecting that was the case as reported in the press, based probably on the fact that Elizabeth's damaged uterus, placenta and abdominal flaps were found alone in the first parcel found at Horsleydown.

hi Debs!
good to see you here again! your expertise and knowledge in this area is much appreciated!

[FrankO]

To which I'd add... The Torso Killer(s) almost certainly had a "home" where they could kill and cut their victims up more easily. The Ripper did not have such luxury, but operated in public places, in someone else's backyard, and a rented room in a shared house.

Or, somewhat differently put … The Torso Killer saw to it that he had all the time he wanted with his victims without having to worry about being caught in the act. Clearly, the Torso killer bothered to see to it. The Ripper’s MO, on the other hand, provided the Ripper with minimal mutilating time with his victims, all the while having to divide his attention between what he came for and his surroundings so that he wouldn’t get caught red-handed.

The Torso killer spread the risk he took by not doing everything in one place at one time; the Ripper, obviously, was willing to take a much greater risk by doing exactly that what the Torso killer didn’t do. Plus, of course, Torso Man also spread the risk also by murdering every once in a while and for maybe as many as 16 years, whilst the Ripper struck about as many times in only a few months or at best in less than 1 year.

[rjpalmer]

This is also a scenario that I have considered many times but in most of the many cases of death after an abortion that I have read about, the women died from peritonitis or similar infections and days after they had travelled back home again, their friends and family none the wiser as to where they had been until they became ill and died. An 'illegal operation' did not involve surgery so the risks of immediate death would be pretty slim I would have thought, unless it was from severe immediate blood loss or poisoning.

To clarify, I was only responding to the question "Would a woman dress up to have an abortion?" but wasn't really insisting the Whitehall case falls into that category-only that it could have. There is no forensic evidence to guide us to whether this was a domestic murder, an abortion case, or something else.

The examples I was thinking of happened in the United States. In one case, a woman from another state traveled to the Big City (New York) to have the 'procedure,' and died as a result. She wasn't taken to a hospital, nor did she return home; she died in secrecy and her body was stuffed into a trunk and taken to the train depot. There were two similar cases in Michigan where two women found in the river were traced to the same brothel, where they had been operated on by the same abortionist, and their bodies dumped after they died. It wouldn't be a great leap to instead cut up a body and bury it, so I can't entirely dismiss the idea.

Concerning the torso victims all being 'young women,' this could be true, but I remember in the Kate Webster case Dr. Adams estimated the victim's age between 19-30, but when the victim was finally conclusively identified, she turned out to be Julia Thomas, who was somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 or 55. Dr. Bond played a role in this autopsy, but I don't recall if he was involved in this age estimate or whether it was strictly Adams.

[Debra A]

To clarify, I was only responding to the question "Would a woman dress up to have an abortion?" but wasn't really insisting the Whitehall case falls into that category-only that it could have. There is no forensic evidence to guide us to whether this was a domestic murder, an abortion case, or something else.

The examples I was thinking of happened in the United States. In one case, a woman from another state traveled to the Big City (New York) to have the 'procedure,' and died as a result. She wasn't taken to a hospital, nor did she return home; she died in secrecy and her body was stuffed into a trunk and taken to the train depot. There were two similar cases in Michigan where two women found in the river were traced to the same brothel, where they had been operated on by the same abortionist, and their bodies dumped after they died. It wouldn't be a great leap to instead cut up a body and bury it, so I can't entirely dismiss the idea.

Concerning the torso victims all being 'young women,' this could be true, but I remember in the Kate Webster case Dr. Adams estimated the victim's age between 19-30, but when the victim was finally conclusively identified, she turned out to be Julia Thomas, who was somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 or 55. Dr. Bond played a role in this autopsy, but I don't recall if he was involved in this age estimate or whether it was strictly Adams.

The cases you mention would be interesting as a study.

[Trevor Marriott]

To clarify, I was only responding to the question "Would a woman dress up to have an abortion?" but wasn't really insisting the Whitehall case falls into that category-only that it could have. There is no forensic evidence to guide us to whether this was a domestic murder, an abortion case, or something else.

The examples I was thinking of happened in the United States. In one case, a woman from another state traveled to the Big City (New York) to have the 'procedure,' and died as a result. She wasn't taken to a hospital, nor did she return home; she died in secrecy and her body was stuffed into a trunk and taken to the train depot. There were two similar cases in Michigan where two women found in the river were traced to the same brothel, where they had been operated on by the same abortionist, and their bodies dumped after they died. It wouldn't be a great leap to instead cut up a body and bury it, so I can't entirely dismiss the idea.

Concerning the torso victims all being 'young women,' this could be true, but I remember in the Kate Webster case Dr. Adams estimated the victim's age between 19-30, but when the victim was finally conclusively identified, she turned out to be Julia Thomas, who was somewhere in the neighborhood of 54 or 55. Dr. Bond played a role in this autopsy, but I don't recall if he was involved in this age estimate or whether it was strictly Adams.

In some of the Torso cases, the coroner directed the jury to deliver a verdict of wilful murder despite there being no evidence to substantiate this, in other cases found dead was the verdict, so to categorically state that the victims were murdered is a step too far in my opinion.

It is suggested by some researchers that the victims were murdered and then dismembered would a killer go to these lengths? Personally, I doubt that, if the victims were murdered that's a lot of trouble to go to dispose of the body when there are many other ways of disposing of a body without the need to dismember it.

As to the dismembering as has been stated there is a suggestion that the victims could have died as a result of some back street medical procedure that could have occurred during a procedure or following such a procedure. If that were the case then clearly the abortionist would need to dispose of all the evidence and distance themselves from the illegal procedure, so dismembering would be an easy option. But I am sure these abortionists were aware of the illegal trade in body parts involving body dealers and the prices being paid for body parts and this is why in my opinion we see evidence of vital organs missing from some of the bodies.

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble? a more simple explanation is that the heads and other body parts were sold to body dealers.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[rjpalmer]

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble?

But Trevor, we know from 'solved' cases that the killer does go to that length. If the victim is headless, it becomes more difficult to identify the body, so the killer thinks they need to take special care with the head.

In the Kate Webster case (1879), the victim's head wasn't discovered until 2011, when the great naturalist, David Attenborough, bought the property next door and was having an extension built onto his house.

The skull was proven to be Mrs. Thomas's.

Skull found in David Attenborough's garden was murder victim Julia Martha Thomas | Daily Mail Online

[Debra A]

In some of the Torso cases, the coroner directed the jury to deliver a verdict of wilful murder despite there being no evidence to substantiate this, in other cases found dead was the verdict, so to categorically state that the victims were murdered is a step too far in my opinion.

It is suggested by some researchers that the victims were murdered and then dismembered would a killer go to these lengths? Personally, I doubt that, if the victims were murdered that's a lot of trouble to go to dispose of the body when there are many other ways of disposing of a body without the need to dismember it.

As to the dismembering as has been stated there is a suggestion that the victims could have died as a result of some back street medical procedure that could have occurred during a procedure or following such a procedure. If that were the case then clearly the abortionist would need to dispose of all the evidence and distance themselves from the illegal procedure, so dismembering would be an easy option. But I am sure these abortionists were aware of the illegal trade in body parts involving body dealers and the prices being paid for body parts and this is why in my opinion we see evidence of vital organs missing from some of the bodies.

I have mentioned all the heads missing from the torsos, some may say that was to hide their identity but again why would a killer go to that trouble? a more simple explanation is that the heads and other body parts were sold to body dealers.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, Ditto to what R.J. just said. We have many, many examples of such cases where the murderer went to great lengths to dismember someone they had just murdered. Perhaps you mean it isn't usually the case within a 'series' of murders?

I can't quite get my head around you believeing that someone who had killed someone during the course of an illegal operation would take such a huge risk in getting rid of a body by dismemberment and disposing of it piecemeal but yet you don't believe someone who had just murdered someone would do the same thing.