Torsoman vs The Ripper

[Abby Normal]

Thread to discuss similarities and differences between the two series. Ive often said that there are more similarities than differences which lead me to lean more toward one man for both. but what do i know lol. just my opinion would love to hear yours.

similarities IMHO:

Same location
Same victimology
Same time frame
Extensive post mortem mutilation
Cutting instrument used ie knife
Vertical gash to midsection
Disconnection of body parts
No overt sexual activity
Abdominal area targeted and pieces removed in flaps
Missing internal organs
Missing possessions
Posing/Displayed victims
Ruse involved
Unsolved
Both series end at the same time

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Abby!

It's been a while since I considered this, but I seem to recall something about the way flaps of skin had been removed (debatably) showing similarities.

Personally, I'm open to the idea of Torso-Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby!

It's been a while since I considered this, but I seem to recall something about the way flaps of skin had been removed (debatably) showing similarities.

Personally, I'm open to the idea of Torso-Ripper.

Hi Diddles!
Kelly, chapman and Elizabth Jackson all had the flesh of their stomach removed by knife in flaps (or strips) by the killer in order to access the inside of the abdoman. Very rare to begin with in a serial killer- whats the chances that two seperate serial killers would do this. This and the other similarities lead me to lean toward they were the same man, but im not married to the idea, just think its most likely.

And my last point above, that both series end around the same time with mckenzie and pinchin is kind of a bigee to me, and is often overlooked, and never adequately explained IMHO.

[Aethelwulf]

Obviously I'm a bit biased here but the ripper was picking up women and going to a secluded spot on foot in yards etc for his 'work' . For the torsos, if they were all by the same person (which is debatable), the women must have been taken somewhere indoors and cut up and then transported - horse and cart I would assume for a torso - and then dumped. It just seems like a totally different murderer and approach (if it was one person). I think someone said before, dismembered bodies/torsos are actually a lot more common than what the ripper was doing.

[Fiver]

Thread to discuss similarities and differences between the two series. Ive often said that there are more similarities than differences which lead me to lean more toward one man for both. but what do i know lol. just my opinion would love to hear yours.

similarities IMHO:

Same location
Same victimology
Same time frame
Extensive post mortem mutilation
Cutting instrument used ie knife
Vertical gash to midsection
Disconnection of body parts
No overt sexual activity
Abdominal area targeted and pieces removed in flaps
Missing internal organs
Missing possessions
Posing/Displayed victims
Ruse involved
Unsolved
Both series end at the same time

* Not the same location. The Ripper left bodies in a very small area. The Torso Killer left bodies for miles up and down the Thames.
* We do not know most of the Torso Killers victims, so we don't know if it was the same victimology.
* Not the same time frame. The Ripper operated for a few months. The Torso Killer operated for years if not decades.
* Not the same type of mutilations. The Torso Killer's mutilations were functional to make it easier to transport the bodies.
* The Ripper strangled, then cut the victim's throats. We do not know how the Torso Killer murdered his victims.
* The Torso Killer cut his victims in two across the midsection. The Ripper frequently cut his victims abdomens, but not in any particular direction and did not cut them in two.
* Not the same 'disconnection'. The Ripper sliced up soft tissues. The Torso Killer separated the body into separate pieces by disarticulating it.
* Not the same targeted areas. The Ripper hacked up the torso and face. The Torso killer separated the body at the joints and across the spine.
* Definite missing organs for the Ripper. Possible missing organs for the Torso Killer, but they may just have been with parts that were not found.
* Some possessions were taken from the sites by the Ripper, probably as trophies. Possessions were not brought to the sites by the Torso Killer - we have no idea if the killer kept them or discarded them.
* The Ripper posed is victims on their back, skirt hiked up, legs spread. The Torso Killer did not pose his victims.
* We have no idea if the Ripper or the Torso Killer used ruses.
* Series do not begin or end at the same time.
* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.

The only actual similarities are:
* Used a knife.
* Unsolved.

[Sam Flynn]

* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.

To which I'd add... The Torso Killer(s) almost certainly had a "home" where they could kill and cut their victims up more easily. The Ripper did not have such luxury, but operated in public places, in someone else's backyard, and a rented room in a shared house.

[John Wheat]

Great post Fiver. However I would add we can't be totally sure the Torso Killer didn't use other weapons or surgical instruments as well as a knife.

[jerryd]

Hi Fiver.

* Not the same location. The Ripper left bodies in a very small area. The Torso Killer left bodies for miles up and down the Thames.
I see your point here as some of the parts were found in Regents Canal, etc, but a lot of the body parts were thought to be dumped in Battersea off a bridge and floated down the river.
* We do not know most of the Torso Killers victims, so we don't know if it was the same victimology.
* Not the same time frame. The Ripper operated for a few months. The Torso Killer operated for years if not decades.
The four that were attributed to the same person occurred between 1887-1889.
* Not the same type of mutilations. The Torso Killer's mutilations were functional to make it easier to transport the bodies.
One interesting torso case that mirrors some of the ripper mutilations was the Tottenham Court Torso in 1884. The eyes had been taken out of the head, the form of the mouth had been disfigured by a cut through the cheek and the nose with part of the cartilage had been cut off.
* The Ripper strangled, then cut the victim's throats. We do not know how the Torso Killer murdered his victims.
Dr. Phillips speculated with the Pinchin torso that she may have been strangled and the cut to the neck covered up any marks.
* The Torso Killer cut his victims in two across the midsection. The Ripper frequently cut his victims abdomens, but not in any particular direction and did not cut them in two.
Not accurate at all I'm afraid to say. That is, as far as cutting the victims in two across the midsection. I would suggest you read up on each of these cases to see how the bodies were dissected.
* Not the same 'disconnection'. The Ripper sliced up soft tissues. The Torso Killer separated the body into separate pieces by disarticulating it.
Again inaccurate. There were dissections performed on Elizabeth Jackson, for example, that went beyond a mere attempt to make transport easier. The Pinchin torso had a cut down the mid-section similar to Ripper victims.
* Not the same targeted areas. The Ripper hacked up the torso and face. The Torso killer separated the body at the joints and across the spine.
Unfortunately, most of the skulls were not found so we don't really know if the faces were mutilated.
* Definite missing organs for the Ripper. Possible missing organs for the Torso Killer, but they may just have been with parts that were not found.
* Some possessions were taken from the sites by the Ripper, probably as trophies. Possessions were not brought to the sites by the Torso Killer - we have no idea if the killer kept them or discarded them.
* The Ripper posed is victims on their back, skirt hiked up, legs spread. The Torso Killer did not pose his victims.
Not sure how you pose body parts, but I would suggest the Whitehall torso was posed in the vault of the Police Buildings and not dumped in the river. The thigh from Elizabeth Jackson was found in a hedge at the Shelley Estate, etc.
* We have no idea if the Ripper or the Torso Killer used ruses.
* Series do not begin or end at the same time.
If you are counting any torso victims before 1888 or so, then yes, they did not begin at the same time. The last torso most of the medicos attributed to the same man, was in 1889. I, personally, am not sure the 1873 torso can be included in the series. Dr. Bond didn't and he was involved in that case as well.
* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.
I am not too sure about that. I believe there is reasonable evidence the torso killer did his work at least where one of the bodies was found.

The only actual similarities are:
* Used a knife.
* Unsolved.

[John Wheat]

The problem with not attributing the earlier Torso murders to the Torso Killer but saying that Jack and the Torso Killer were one and the same is the earlier Torso murders are considerably more similar to the later Torso murders than the C5.

[caz]

To which I'd add... The Torso Killer(s) almost certainly had a "home" where they could kill and cut their victims up more easily. The Ripper did not have such luxury, but operated in public places, in someone else's backyard, and a rented room in a shared house.

Hi Sam,

Good to see you back!

I agree that the ripper would not have had the 'luxury' of murdering and mutilating where he lived, if he didn't live alone. Equally, he may or may not have had a place of his own if he simply preferred to leave his victims where he found them, to be quickly discovered. I can't see why a serial killer would have wanted the chore of transporting a body or body parts, if he could have avoided it by continuing to select victims at random out on the open streets, where no connection could be made with his home or place of work.

I certainly struggle with the idea that, if the ripper was living with his family [Lechmere, for example], he would have given himself the additional headache of including any woman among his victims who had to be dismembered and then dumped at a distance, either because he had foolishly killed her too close to 'home', or because of some personal connection between the two.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

hi fiver
you make some good points. But I also, agree with everything Jerry posted, so wont repeat his in my responses.

* Not the same location. The Ripper left bodies in a very small area. The Torso Killer left bodies for miles up and down the Thames.Same location-same city, and within a few miles of each other and pinchin in the heart of ripper territory.
* We do not know most of the Torso Killers victims, so we don't know if it was the same victimology.Same victimology-women of a certain age and class. and we know jackson was an unfortunate so not a stretch that the others were also.
* Not the same time frame. The Ripper operated for a few months. The Torso Killer operated for years if not decades.IMHO the rippers victims span Millwood to mckenzie, so well over a year. at the very least, the two series overlap in time.
* Not the same type of mutilations. The Torso Killer's mutilations were functional to make it easier to transport the bodies.Incorrect. all the torso victims had post mortem mutilation above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment transport. and pinchin had a vertical gash to the midsection, like the ripper victims.
* The Ripper strangled, then cut the victim's throats. We do not know how the Torso Killer murdered his victims.this wasnt one of my points, but i basically agree with you here.
* The Torso Killer cut his victims in two across the midsection. The Ripper frequently cut his victims abdomens, but not in any particular direction and did not cut them in two.ripper used a vertical gash to midsection, as did pinchin. and jackson, chapman and kelly all had stomach flesh removed in flaps.
* Not the same 'disconnection'. The Ripper sliced up soft tissues. The Torso Killer separated the body into separate pieces by disarticulating it.they both cut soft tissue, and both cut away body parts. but i see your main point here. the ripper was mainly an evicerator and torsoman was mainly a dismemberer. i do agree with that no question. more on a possible reason for that later. *
* Not the same targeted areas. The Ripper hacked up the torso and face. The Torso killer separated the body at the joints and across the spine.tottenham had facial mutilations eerily and very similar to eddowes. also torsoman, mutilated the midsection and again all torso victims had mutilations not related to dismemberment.
* Definite missing organs for the Ripper. Possible missing organs for the Torso Killer, but they may just have been with parts that were not found.not a point i made, but i basically agree.
* Some possessions were taken from the sites by the Ripper, probably as trophies. Possessions were not brought to the sites by the Torso Killer - we have no idea if the killer kept them or discarded them. both ripper and torso victims had rings removed and taken.
* The Ripper posed is victims on their back, skirt hiked up, legs spread. The Torso Killer did not pose his victims. by posed /displayed I meant no overt attempt to destroy or hide body and or parts and left in places in such a way that had special meaning to killer one of which was shock value
* We have no idea if the Ripper or the Torso Killer used ruses.unless the victims went knowingly to their death, or both were blitz attacked where they were found(highly unlikely)then obviously the killer used a ruse to get the victims to a more secluded place.
* Series do not begin or end at the same time. I never said begin, but i did say end at the same time- pinchin and mckenzie. very odd coincidence, to me anyway.
* The Ripper killed his victims where the bodies were found. The Torso Killer did not - he transported parts of the bodies to multiple locations.again, not one of my points, and again, i basically agree with you here.

The only actual similarities are:
* Used a knife.
* Unsolved. well obviously we disagree strongly here.

* The torsoman obviously had a chop shop where he lured his victims to, killed and dismembered. the ripper victims could have been when torsoman didnt have access to his chop shop and had to kill on the street. it explains many of the differences. for example, removing or taking away heads, carrying a saw or needing to dismember to discard body, just isnt practical and or needed.

at tje end of the day, we have two unsolved post mortem mutilating serial killers operating in basically the same time and place, targeting the same type of victim, using a cutting instrument to dissect and remove body parts and the bodies/parts left publicly for shock value.

or we have one series,where the amazing coincidences are because its just one man, and in which the much fewer differences are explained by the killers different circumstances. i lean toward the latter.

[Aethelwulf]

hi fiver
you make some good points. But I also, agree with everything Jerry posted, so wont repeat his in my responses.



* The torsoman obviously had a chop shop where he lured his victims to, killed and dismembered. the ripper victims could have been when torsoman didnt have access to his chop shop and had to kill on the street. it explains many of the differences. for example, removing or taking away heads, carrying a saw or needing to dismember to discard body, just isnt practical and or needed.

at tje end of the day, we have two unsolved post mortem mutilating serial killers operating in basically the same time and place, targeting the same type of victim, using a cutting instrument to dissect and remove body parts and the bodies/parts left publicly for shock value.

or we have one series,where the amazing coincidences are because its just one man, and in which the much fewer differences are explained by the killers different circumstances. i lean toward the latter.

It seems more like Torsoman (if all of the torsos were by one person) was going out of his way to hide the identiy of the victims, probably because they had some connection that may lead back to him. Perhaps that is why the Whitehall torso had been sitting somehwere for 6 to 8 weeks before being moved, so that it was well decomosed (if the head was found) to hinder an ID.

Also the idea of a chop that he may or may not have access to sounds a bit too much like special pleading. I think most likely is that he would have lured his victims back to his house and that was his base for his chopping. I can't see that he met and killed them elsewhere as that wpould introduce the complexity of transporting them back to his base.

They are just too different IMO and I'm not convinced one person did all the torsos. Torsos aren't that uncommon, usually for practical purposes of transporting and disposal.

[Abby Normal]

It seems more like Torsoman (if all of the torsos were by one person) was going out of his way to hide the identiy of the victims, probably because they had some connection that may lead back to him. Perhaps that is why the Whitehall torso had been sitting somehwere for 6 to 8 weeks before being moved, so that it was well decomosed (if the head was found) to hinder an ID.

Also the idea of a chop that he may or may not have access to sounds a bit too much like special pleading. I think most likely is that he would have lured his victims back to his house and that was his base for his chopping. I can't see that he met and killed them elsewhere as that wpould introduce the complexity of transporting them back to his base.

They are just too different IMO and I'm not convinced one person did all the torsos. Torsos aren't that uncommon, usually for practical purposes of transporting and disposal.

hey wulf
i think he was going out of his way to hide the Identity of the victims, but not hide the Body, parts. those were displayed, and placed in areas that probably had special meaning to the killer.

i think Jerry D beleives the whitehall victim had been lured there, murdered and dismembered there, and provides evidence and a possible suspect.

by chop shop, i meant somewhere he could lure his victims, kill them and dismember them. it could be where he lived, or not.

the 87-89 torsos are undoubtedly by the same person, even the police and drs at the time agree to that. its if you want to include others, like the 70s cases, or tottenham. personally, im on the fence with the pre 87-89 cases, but think tottenham more than likely part of torsomans series.

torsos/ dismemberment in victorian england was actually NOT common. thats a myth that has been overturned by the likes of researcher extraordinaire Debra Arif. (who by the way was the first to bring attention to the similarities of the stomach flesh removed in flaps between the two series, and noted that all the torsos had postmortem mutilation beyond what was needed for dismemberment. it was these facts that first led me to lean toward one man.)

[Aethelwulf]

Using PI's 'catchphrase' - please see my replies below haha!

hey wulf
i think he was going out of his way to hide the Identity of the victims, but not hide the Body, parts. those were displayed, and placed in areas that probably had special meaning to the killer.

It's still very different though. C5 were laid out for all to see. No question over who they were.

i think Jerry D beleives the whitehall victim had been lured there, murdered and dismembered there, and provides evidence and a possible suspect.

Again, I think lying hidden in that location for 6-8 weeks is very different.

by chop shop, i meant somewhere he could lure his victims, kill them and dismember them. it could be where he lived, or not.

I was thinking of Lech's 'shed'. Can't see how that would work practially speaking.

the 87-89 torsos are undoubtedly by the same person, even the police and drs at the time agree to that. its if you want to include others, like the 70s cases, or tottenham. personally, im on the fence with the pre 87-89 cases, but think tottenham more than likely part of torsomans series.

To be honest I don't know much about the earlier cases but will have a look.

torsos/ dismemberment in victorian england was actually NOT common. thats a myth that has been overturned by the likes of researcher extraordinaire Debra Arif.

Maybe but restricting the timeframe and reduing the possible sample size is shifting goal posts a bit. Thinking generally over a much longer and more represnataive timeframe IMO shows that what the ripper did was very rare. Toroso man less so. Torsos being found isn't that uncommon relatively.

(who by the way was the first to bring attention to the similarities of the stomach flesh removed in flaps between the two series, and noted that all the torsos had postmortem mutilation beyond what was needed for dismemberment. it was these facts that first led me to lean toward one man.)

Also if you are saying the medical men belived they were by the same person, they also thought that person wasn't the ripper - from the essay by Debra:

the two murders were also linked by the press to the previous Rainham and Whitehall mysteries. Inspector Tunbridge, who had been in charge of the Jackson murder investigation, was brought in to view the Pinchin Street torso, along with detectives who had been involved in the other similar cases. It was reported that the general opinion of these detectives was that the mode of dismemberment in all these cases was strikingly similar and there was also an opinion expressed that these murders were of a 'different origin' to the Whitechapel atrocities.

Out of interest there was a chalk message at the Ordance Arms about the whitehall torso and a ripper letter too.

[rjpalmer]

It's remarkable that Ripperologists can determine from a dismembered, decomposed, and unidentified corpse that the victim was a prostitute and thus the same "victimology."

Someone is having a leg-pull.