Did the Ripper want to be caught?

[Nick Spring]

Thrills-yes
Wanting to be caught-absolutely not.

I Beleive the ripper was very street smart local who took calculated risks but who was always perceptive enough to escape in the nick of time.

If you Beleive stride was a ripper victim, and I do, then it is evidence that he definitely did not want to get caught as he would give up finishing his true objective in order to escape and NOT get caught.

And I agree with those who say that the length of time between the double event and MK killing could be do to the fact that he was laying low for awhile after the close calls and possible being seen by multiple witnesses the night of the double event. And or was changing tactics and was looking for a victim that had her own place for a safer murder and it took awhile before he found one with MK. Again, pointing to not wanting to get caught.

And I seriously doubt that someone who was bat **** crazy and with one foot in the loony bin could have convinced women at the time to go with him to a secluded spot or have the faculties to avoid being caught by the police or public.

This was a savvy local street smart serial killer who enjoyed what he was doing and like many other serial offenders probably had the criminal background (burglary, peeping Tom, ect) that gave him the experience to avoid getting caught.

Hi Abby,

Yes I think that's right. I started the thread because I wanted to see what other people thought of the risks the murderer took.

Perhaps he didn't want to get caught more the exquisite thrill of fear that was part of his acting out these fantasies.

Definitely not a loony and someone who could win the confidence of, albeit desperate women.

Best

Nick

[Abby Normal]

I have pondered this for a while and I cant find any discussion about it.

The murders seem to have a pattern of extreme risk involved in all of them.

This can included others than the C5.

But if you look at Chapman, Stride(who I would included) and Eddowes it is utter madness to attempt killings in these situations.

It is almost as if Jack wanted to get caught and or this is was part of the thrill. This implies some sort of planning on his behalf to get maximum kicks out of the whole thing.

Or is it these were just opportunist killings by some nutter.

Just some thoughts.

Nick

Thrills-yes
Wanting to be caught-absolutely not.

I Beleive the ripper was very street smart local who took calculated risks but who was always perceptive enough to escape in the nick of time.

If you Beleive stride was a ripper victim, and I do, then it is evidence that he definitely did not want to get caught as he would give up finishing his true objective in order to escape and NOT get caught.

And I agree with those who say that the length of time between the double event and MK killing could be do to the fact that he was laying low for awhile after the close calls and possible being seen by multiple witnesses the night of the double event. And or was changing tactics and was looking for a victim that had her own place for a safer murder and it took awhile before he found one with MK. Again, pointing to not wanting to get caught.

And I seriously doubt that someone who was bat **** crazy and with one foot in the loony bin could have convinced women at the time to go with him to a secluded spot or have the faculties to avoid being caught by the police or public.

This was a savvy local street smart serial killer who enjoyed what he was doing and like many other serial offenders probably had the criminal background (burglary, peeping Tom, ect) that gave him the experience to avoid getting caught.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Richard

Not sure that I can follow you so easily into accepting the Maxwell evidence, but I found what you said all the more interesting because I've recently read "The News from Whitechapel" which includes Alex Chisholm's excellent commentary on the timing of the MJK killing...actually the whole damn thing was very good indeed...

All the best

Dave

[richardnunweek]

Hi Dave,
Indeed the Ripper being cautious after the so called ''Double Event'' is likely, and I feel he/she[ one never knows] would be hesitant in finding another victim on the local streets after Sept 30th.
The very fact that the killer did not venture into another district, points to their base being local,one could surmise that he could not venture into the west end in search of a likely victim who may have had a room , simply because he would not personally attract a better class of prostitute by his appearance.., or manner.
I would suggest that he stalked Mary Kelly for some time, and waited his chance which came on the morning of the 9th, but in daylight hours.
As the killer always struck at night, Kelly would not suspect any punter of being the killer who approached her in daylight hours with a proposal . it would throw her off guard, and would not attract suspicion from outsiders.
Regards Richard.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Richard

I would suggest that the killer was fearful of being caught, and quite possibly only escaped detection by a whisker after Eddowes.

I felt that this was a very interesting observation, which might, in itself, partially explain the long gap between the double event and MJK. We hear a lot about the fogs, or Jack being sated etc but of JtR having himself received a scare very little...

But bearing in mind the generally held belief that Liz Stride's killer was disturbed, wouldn't that same scare factor apply with regard to the Eddowes killing? Or do you perhaps regard Liz as outside the canon?

Alternatively do you think it might've been the combined scare caused by two narrow squeaks on the same night which might've consequently instigated the long delay, and the subsequent modification to the MO?

All the best

Dave

[pinkmoon]

Hi, Pinkmoon,
Just wondering -- is that's a personal "feeling" of yours or if you've heard something, perhaps something passed down, that leads you to that belief?

Thx,

curious

Just a feeling of mine let's face it he must have been seen by somebody he didn't have the power of invisibility.I bet over the years someone has been told a story by a very old relative about there father or some other close relative claiming to have seen our killer.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I would suggest that the killer was fearful of being caught, and quite possibly only escaped detection by a whisker after Eddowes.
As I believe that Kelly was premeditated, and chosen, because of prior knowledge of her circumstances ie, her own room, I must suggest that at the very least the Ripper was known to her, unless he gained knowledge of her habits via observation , or a third party.
Its because he kept off the streets, I maintain he enjoyed his liberty, and I also believe he not only altered his night time walks , but also gained access to Mary's room in the early daylight hours of the 9th, by her invitation .
Regards Richard.

[Michael W Richards]

I think were omitting a very real possibility....that the killer or killers of at least the public venue Canonical murders didnt rationalize at all...risk vs reward. He just acted...no filters, no moral quandaries, no sense of danger or risk....he saw a chance with a woman alone and lept at it. The first time he was so spontaneous that he narrowed his window of time after the killing to such a degree that he couldnt complete his objective. The next time, he plays it cool and gets into a yard with his victim...and even the approaching daylight didnt spoil his attention.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

After all, he'd have nothing to lose - if caught, he'd just be sent back to the asylum.

Unless he was adjudged to be no longer insane - which would presumably have been the reason why he was released from the asylum in the first place.

[Nick Spring]

Hi All!

One thing that could be a factor here, is that Jack has, like James Kelly, already been tried, sentenced to death, then reprieved because of mental issues, and sent to an asylum.

If Jack was such a person - he'd have nothing to lose and could take considerable risks, probably adding to his fun. After all, he'd have nothing to lose - if caught, he'd just be sent back to the asylum.

That's an interesting idea.

[Nick Spring]

If we assume the canonical 5 (or 4, to avoid making this a Stride thread) were killed by the Ripper, then I think it's very hard to say that the killer WANTED to get caught...because the killer has a perfect record of not being caught, a perfect record of making little to no noise at the murder sites, a perfect record of not leaving any meaningful evidence behind at the murder scene.

Even if you are Lynn Cates and you believe the Ripper WAS caught (which I don't), he was caught for his behavior many hours after a murder.

Likewise, I'm not so sure he got off on the thrill of killing outdoors. If this is the case, why was Kelly killed indoors? My suspicion is that Jack killed outdoors because he had to: he was a dosser who had no place of his own in which to rip.

I think he did get a thrill from killing outdoors.

The risk was part of the attraction, plus the displaying of the bodies.

If he was a dosser and assuming the trophies were taken at the time of the murders, where would he take them.

Best

Nick

[Damaso Marte]

If we assume the canonical 5 (or 4, to avoid making this a Stride thread) were killed by the Ripper, then I think it's very hard to say that the killer WANTED to get caught...because the killer has a perfect record of not being caught, a perfect record of making little to no noise at the murder sites, a perfect record of not leaving any meaningful evidence behind at the murder scene.

Even if you are Lynn Cates and you believe the Ripper WAS caught (which I don't), he was caught for his behavior many hours after a murder.

Likewise, I'm not so sure he got off on the thrill of killing outdoors. If this is the case, why was Kelly killed indoors? My suspicion is that Jack killed outdoors because he had to: he was a dosser who had no place of his own in which to rip.

[curious]

I do believe that our killer was seen and even possibly disturbed by someone during a murder and it wasn't reported to the police

Hi, Pinkmoon,
Just wondering -- is that's a personal "feeling" of yours or if you've heard something, perhaps something passed down, that leads you to that belief?

Thx,

curious

[Countess Mitzi]

Hi All!

One thing that could be a factor here, is that Jack has, like James Kelly, already been tried, sentenced to death, then reprieved because of mental issues, and sent to an asylum.

If Jack was such a person - he'd have nothing to lose and could take considerable risks, probably adding to his fun. After all, he'd have nothing to lose - if caught, he'd just be sent back to the asylum.

[pinkmoon]

There were plenty of opportunities for the ripper to be caught in the act, yet nobody ever actually reported seeing the ripper committing the murders. That has to some degree demonstrate a certain amount of carefulness.

There are however several if not quite a few eye witness accounts and descriptions of men (likely to have been the ripper) seen with the victims. For example, Joseph Levy saw a man with Kate by Church passage shortly before her death and another being George Hutchinson, giving an almost suspiciously detailed account of a man seen with MJK hours before her remains were discovered. It would appear from those witnesses and their respective police statements that there were indeed sightings of the ripper, just none solid enough to pinpoint the rippers identity.

I don't take any of the so called sightings seriously and I do believe that our killer was seen and even possibly disturbed by someone during a murder and it wasn't reported to the police