What did the copy-cat killer copy?

[Mr Lucky]

It is a mystery for him at the time he is being asked, that is all we are required to understand.

Yes it's a 'mystery', therefore there is no obvious explanation.

I'm trying (as always) to deal with the information literally. The fact that Phillips has claimed it to be a mystery, then that by definition means that there is no obvious solution. He isn't calling it a mystery because he hadn't considered the obvious. He calling it a mystery because it cannot be explained.

If when asked at the inquest about the blood stained hand, if he hadn't considered how this could have happened previously then he would simply offer no explanation, he wouldn't state it was a 'mystery'

So, you answered that objection yourself then, and you think Phillips was not able to do the same?

No, The investigators believe the killer was interrupted.

Ok then, is that your theory, that the whole scene was staged?

It's a hypothesis that I am testing against the notion of a copy-cat killer.

Phillips had to have considered any possibilities involving both the killer and the witnesses manhandling the body in the yard. Naturally, he would not question a policeman, and would likely expect another medical man to indicate that they were responsible.

No, he would just ask.

If your theory relies on the investigators simply not communicating with each other, I don't think that very likely at all.

No matter how many alternate scenario's are proposed, the action of a bloodied hand of another person feeling for a pulse must be the least complicated and most likely solution.

No matter how simple a solution it is, we can rule it out if it didn't happen.

[Fisherman]

Phillips had to have considered any possibilities involving both the killer and the witnesses manhandling the body in the yard. Naturally, he would not question a policeman, and would likely expect another medical man to indicate that they were responsible.

The only policeman to whom suspicion could be attached was not questioned directly on the matter, and may not have even been in the courtroom as the subject evolved.



She may have bled to death rather slowly but there is no indication she was conscious. The fact she retained hold of the cachous, and that apparently there was no blood on her left hand would suggest she was not conscious, wouldn't it?

Isn't it natural that a person bleeding from the throat will raise both hands to feel her neck?, this would also require her rolling onto her back however momentary, but her clothes show no such activity, nor of her even raising her left hand.
There is just nothing to indicate her being conscious that I can see.

No matter how many alternate scenario's are proposed, the action of a bloodied hand of another person feeling for a pulse must be the least complicated and most likely solution.

Many good points there, Jon! But I don´t think either Lamb or Johnston put that blood there. If I had to go for one man of these two, though, I´d say Lamb seems the better choice.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Mr Lucky]

Ok, just to look at some other aspect of the copy-cat notion and how it fits in with the crime scenes

Had nobody connected the throttling with the silence of the attack ?

Tabram/Nichols

As I posted earlier that difficulty in identifying Tabram had been put down as being due to the throttling she had received prior to being murdered, but nowhere is this throttling given as a possible reason for no-one hearing her actually being murdered

The difficulty of identification arose out of the brutal treatment to which the deceased was manifestly subjected, she being throttled while held down, and the face and head so swollen and distorted in consequence that her real features are not discernable.

In comparison, the identification of Nichols, was relatively straight forward. Of the other later C5 victims, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes were all misidentified to some degree, even if it was only briefly. With Kelly murdered in her residence, the identification process amounted to confirmation of who she was, rather than the need to find this out first.

Despite this lack of difficulty in identifying her, most who study the crime now believe Nichols was asphyxiated in some way, prior to being murder by the knife injuries, but there is no direct contemporary mention anywhere of throttling or strangulation in connection with her attack. However one of mysteries connected with the Nichols murder was again, just as with Tabram, the silence of the attack.

The absence of screams and noise was still noted by Swanson in his 19 October report -

'Coffee stall keepers, prostitutes, the night watchman in Winthrop street - as street parallel to Buck's-row - as well as the inhabitants of Buck's-row, were questioned but were unable to help the police in the slightest degree. They had not seen the woman, nor had they heard any screams or noise.'

Mrs Lilley's statement (Echo 6 Sept, Lloyd's 9 Sept) which described a noise which could be the sound of someone being throttled isn't mentioned at all.

'Well, I heard something I mentioned to my husband in the morning. It was a painful moan - two or three faint gasps - and then it passed away. It was quite dark at the time, but a luggage train went by as I heard the sounds. There was, too, a sound as of whispers underneath the window. I distinctly heard voices, but cannot say what was said - it was too faint.'

The lack of screams heard by those nearby was first noted by Inspector Spratling in his 31 August report - 'none of whom heard any scream during the night'

If the investigators are expecting the witnesses to have heard screams during the night, have they assumed that the women were conscious and capable of screaming when first attacked, and that the nature of the attack would have allowed/provoked the victim into responding in this way?

The appearance of the body, and in regards to the location of the blood at the Nichols murder, suggest that the knife had only been used on the woman when she was already lying down, how did she end up lying down?

However this occurred, would this delay while the killer got her on to the ground have given her the opportunity to scream?

So, is the killer throttling the women as a way of killing in silence or does he have another way of silently incapacitating the victim, who he then throttles before attacking with the knife ?

The killer compelled by his own internal drives would likely repeat what he had done previously, but if the women had been attacked by the killer with intention of them being incapacitated or silenced immediately, then the throttling was just a way of bringing this about and the learning killer could just use a different method to achieve the same result.

The copy-cat should try to stick with the method that had been used before, otherwise, the danger is that the copy may well be recognize as an original.

[Mr Lucky]

Chapman

The first official mention of any of these women being throttled in any way occurs during the Chapman Inquest when Dr Phillips states;-

he was of opinion that the breathing was interfered with previous to death

Earlier in his testimony he had described signs of this;-

The face was swollen and turned on the right side. The tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The tongue was evidently much swollen.

So the breathing was interfered with prior to death but wasn't responsible for death, which would fit with the Tabram killing, where Dr Killeen referring to the knife wounds, stated that 'all of them were caused during life'.

I think it unlikely that a copy-cat killer would attempt to strangle Chapman simply because there is nothing about this in the press reports of the Nichols murder, and he would be unlikely to do so based on the slim reference in the Tabram murder.

The standard serial killer compelled by his own internal drives would likely repeat what he had done previously

The learning killer could just use the same proven method to achieve the same result.

So it seems likely that by suffocating Chapman her killer appears to be the same person who killed Nichols and Tabram, as using this initial suffocation method prior to using the knife wasn't in the public domain.

So a quick overview-

1- All three victims Tabram, Nichols and Chapman show some sign of throttling/strangling
2- All three victims are killed in near silence*, or at least, without any screams heard
3- The press do mention that Tabram appears to be strangled, but in connection with the difficulty in identifying her.
4- No press/official mention of any kind of suffocation in Nichols
5- Dr Phillips deposes at inquest that Chapman showed signs of suffocation.

* = possible exceptions - Harriet Lilley, Albert Cadosche

The question is would a copy-cat killer attempt to fit his rogue killing in with the previous murders by using suffocation of some kind, this isn't an aspect of the crimes that had caught the publics imagination in the way that some characteristics of the killing did, though the silence of the murderer was certainly part of the publics perception ( Leather Apron moved silently for example.) However this information was for the first time actually given in evidence at the inquest by the Doctor and recorded in the press, surely no-one hoping to achieve a realistic copy-cat killing could fail to take this into account.

So in regards to next murders, the double event, what's the evidence for any kind of strangulation?

[Damaso Marte]

So in regards to next murders, the double event, what's the evidence for any kind of strangulation?

There is none, but Eddowes's death was just as silent as the others, and she was indisputably cut on the ground.

[Michael W Richards]

Lets take another example rather than just Canonicals....does anyone see familiarity with the 5 in the murder of Alice Mackenzie?

The police sure did. Does that mean we have the same person...or does it indicate that people were influenced by what they have read...even killers.

I raised this issue before, but in Ontario last year we had a murder that involved cutting up the body afterwards. Within a month another murder occurred in Buffalo, NY, that involved the same attributes. Did killer B get ideas from killer A?

Cheers

[Mr Lucky]

There is none, but Eddowes's death was just as silent as the others, and she was indisputably cut on the ground.

Hi Damaso,

So how was the cutting on the ground in silence actually done ?

[Mr Lucky]

Lets take another example rather than just Canonicals....does anyone see familiarity with the 5 in the murder of Alice Mackenzie?

The police sure did. Does that mean we have the same person...or does it indicate that people were influenced by what they have read...even killers.

Hi Michael,

Alice Mackenzie was stabbed in the throat, like Nichols and Tabram, and throat was also attacked from the left side, like Nichols, Stride and Eddowes

I raised this issue before, but in Ontario last year we had a murder that involved cutting up the body afterwards. Within a month another murder occurred in Buffalo, NY, that involved the same attributes. Did killer B get ideas from killer A?

Possibly, was he asked this?

[Damaso Marte]

Hi Damaso,

So how was the cutting on the ground in silence actually done ?

It's indisputable that Eddowes was subdued, lowered to the ground, and then cut. It's a good bet that this was done in silence, just like the other canonicals, because we had people living in the square and a night watchman closeby who heard nothing. I have no idea how this happened, and neither do you or any other poster on this site.

Possibilities include:
(a) Eddowes was incapacitated with some kind of headlock
(b) Eddowes fainted
(c) Eddowes WAS strangled, but for some reason no signs of strangulation appeared on the body

[Mr Lucky]

It's indisputable that Eddowes was subdued, lowered to the ground, and then cut. It's a good bet that this was done in silence, just like the other canonicals, because we had people living in the square and a night watchman closeby who heard nothing. I have no idea how this happened, and neither do you or any other poster on this site.

Hi Damaso,

Thanks, that's very interesting - nobody knows - so how did the copy-cat know?

Possibilities include:
(a) Eddowes was incapacitated with some kind of headlock
(b) Eddowes fainted
(c) Eddowes WAS strangled, but for some reason no signs of strangulation appeared on the body

Anyone got any more?

[caz]

Hi Damaso,

Thanks, that's very interesting - nobody knows - so how did the copy-cat know?

Hi Mr Lucky,

I have asked this in the past, and nobody seems to know that either.

If it is a complete mystery how one killer managed to overpower his victim(s) swiftly and silently before inflicting a fatal wound, it would be an even bigger mystery how one or more copy-cats could have known to use a similar method, let alone been able to achieve the same result each time.

What is fairly mind boggling for me is the idea of several different killers being able to pull off such a clever collective trick, back in 1888, of looking for all the world like one of the many classic serial murder cases of subsequent decades.

How would they have known how to achieve this, if it was by design, and what are the chances of them doing so by accident?

Love,

Caz
X

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Caz,

I have asked this in the past, and nobody seems to know that either.

If it is a complete mystery how one killer managed to overpower his victim(s) swiftly and silently before inflicting a fatal wound, it would be an even bigger mystery how one or more copy-cats could have known to use a similar method, let alone been able to achieve the same result each time.

We are reminded, by those who believe that one or both of the murders of Stride and Eddowes were the work of another, that there was a third throat cutting murder, on the same night as the double event, when John Brown cut his wife throat.

So did John Brown manage to kill in silence?

Well, here's what his neighbour, Mr Redding, said at the trial;-

'I live next door to the prisoner—I have known him living there twelve months—about 10 minutes to 11 on Saturday night, 29th September, I heard someone walk downstairs in the next house—immediately after I heard a scuffle in the front room and heard a woman call out "Oh, don't!"—I went with my wife to the front door, and heard a thud, as from somebody falling on the floor; then all was quiet; as we got to the door I saw the prisoner leave the house by the front door; he slammed it after him and walked hurriedly away' - Oldbaileyonline

So,in the one killing of the three that we know is not the work of the Whitechapel killer, the murderer makes that much din, that the next door neighbour investigates.

What is fairly mind boggling for me is the idea of several different killers being able to pull off such a clever collective trick, back in 1888, of looking for all the world like one of the many classic serial murder cases of subsequent decades.

But if all the Whitechapel murders (leaving Smith and the Pinchin Street victim out, for a mo) were done by one hand, what's the 'Jack the Ripper' mutilations bit in the middle of the series all about ?

I'm not sure if it is a classic series unless you stop at Kelly, which leaves Mylett, Mackenzie and Coles as the victims of another, yet they share similarities with Tabram and Nichols. So what's going on?

How would they have known how to achieve this, if it was by design, and what are the chances of them doing so by accident?

A very good point.

[Michael W Richards]

We have evidence in some cases, not all, that some kind of ligature or artifact may have been used to choke the women first. That alone is enough to create the silence that seems to accompany "Ripper" murders, and hardly something that would be considered a unique approach and used only by Jack.

How many victims wore scarves? Which ones? How many had the protruding tongue?

The postmortem evisceration is what really matters most when we talk about Jack, and if he killed only the Canonicals, and was institutionalized or incarcerated during the winter of 89.....then explain Alice Mackenzie in terms that do not suggest a very similar style murder to some of the Canonicals.

Slitting the throat isnt enough of a litmus test, its not really a unique choice for that era or any era for that matter.

Cheers

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Michael,

We have evidence in some cases, not all, that some kind of ligature or artifact may have been used to choke the women first.

Which cases? - Mylett ?

That alone is enough to create the silence that seems to accompany "Ripper" murders, and hardly something that would be considered a unique approach and used only by Jack.

The silence appears to cover all of the Whitechapel murders not just the "Ripper" murders, that one of the points that seems to connect them together, whether interrupted/non-interrupted, or abdominal mutilations/no mutilations these killings were done quietly enough to prevent anyone nearby investigating them, unlike John Brown's one-off domestic murder of his wife.

The quiet connected with the killings was in the public domain, the use of a ligature wasn't. So why would a copy-cat use a ligature?

How many victims wore scarves? Which ones?

Surely, that is beyond the killers control?

How many had the protruding tongue?

Annie Chapman, don't think any of the others did.

The postmortem evisceration is what really matters most when we talk about Jack, and if he killed only the Canonicals, and was institutionalized or incarcerated during the winter of 89.....then explain Alice Mackenzie in terms that do not suggest a very similar style murder to some of the Canonicals.

Slitting the throat isnt enough of a litmus test, its not really a unique choice for that era or any era for that matter.

So if just 'slitting' Stride throat would make a poor attempt at a copy, so why didn't the copy-cat make a better job of it.

[Damaso Marte]

I'm not sure if it is a classic series unless you stop at Kelly, which leaves Mylett, Mackenzie and Coles as the victims of another, yet they share similarities with Tabram and Nichols. So what's going on?

I'm often attracted to the idea that Mackenzie represents a half-assed attempt at restarting an old hobby.