What did the copy-cat killer copy?

[Wickerman]

'The whole truth';- Lamb shouldn't self-edit or miss anything out of his testimony, this isn't the same as accusing him of misleading or anything like that, but he should give the whole truth, so if he had touched the blood before touching the woman he should say that, the sequence of events isn't that complicated and should be fresh in his memory, so I think its unlikely that he had actually done this and forgotten.

A witness is not there to tell a story, you do not speak until you are spoken to and, you only the answer to the question being asked.
At least that is the principal.

As PC Lamb was not asked if he noticed blood on her hand, or on her chin, then there was no call for him to mention it. Lamb was not aware that this would become an issue, those questions only arose with the next witness.
Why Coroner Baxter did not ask him either question is of course unknown, but the officer did not do anything wrong.

[Mr Lucky]

A witness is not there to tell a story, you do not speak until you are spoken to and, you only the answer to the question being asked.
At least that is the principal.

The Court doesn't know anything until it is told (not the Judge as he does know what has happened) ie, the Jury, who make the actual decision don't know what happened until the witnesses tell them !!

The Court asks the witness what happened, the witness tells the court what happened,- gives testimony. The Coroner and Jury can ask questions based on that testimony.

As PC Lamb was not asked if he noticed blood on her hand, or on her chin, then there was no call for him to mention it. Lamb was not aware that this would become an issue, those questions only arose with the next witness.
Why Coroner Baxter did not ask him either question is of course unknown, but the officer did not do anything wrong.

If Lamb didn't say he put his fingers in the blood, it didn't happen.

[Wickerman]

The Court doesn't know anything until it is told (not the Judge as he does know what has happened) ie, the Jury, who make the actual decision don't know what happened until the witnesses tell them !!

Once again, you are forgetting, the Coroner viewed the body himself, before the post mortem.

If Lamb didn't say he put his fingers in the blood, it didn't happen.

And you are quite entitled to believe this.

[Mr Lucky]

Once again, you are forgetting, the Coroner viewed the body himself, before the post mortem.

I haven't forgotten anything. What Lamb deposed is completely independent of whether the Coroner had seen the body or not.

Once again;- if Lamb had touched the blood before touching the woman he would have said that whilst giving his testimony.

[Mr Lucky]

For example, with the Tabram murder, there were no real clues at the scene,

Are there any other shared aspects of the Tabram/Nichols murders that may indicate any form of copying/learning ?

One similarity, between the two murders was that they appear to have been done in complete silence. At the time, no real explanation was ever provided for this (other than the suggestion of the hand print over Nichols mouth), so it would seem that this aspect was something that could not have been copied.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mr Lucky

One similarity, between the two murders was that they appear to have been done in complete silence. At the time, no real explanation was ever provided for this (other than the suggestion of the hand print over Nichols mouth), so it would seem that this aspect was something that could not have been copied.

Another similarity between Tabram/Nichols murder is the singular stab wound to the privates.

[Wickerman]

Once again;- if Lamb had touched the blood before touching the woman he would have said that whilst giving his testimony.

So presumably, you would demand this for all the witnesses. And, as none of them did own up to causing the blood to appear on both the inside & outside of the wrist, how do you suppose it got there?

[Mr Lucky]

Another similarity between Tabram/Nichols murder is the singular stab wound to the privates.

Hi Jon,

Yes, a very interesting point (Nichols had two stabs, I believe), I don't remember these particular injuries being referred to at all in the press relating to the Tabram murder (though I haven't specifically looked to be fair, but if the information isn't in the public domain then it can not form part of an attempt at copying) but I think that this report in the Echo 31 August hints at these stabs to the privates (very similar in character);-

Not only the police officers immediately engaged in the case, but the whole of the available detective force in the East-end are making a search for the slightest possible clue to the tragedy, and their investigations are materially aided by the advice of Inspector Reid, whose latest experience in crime of the kind was the dreadful affair at George-yard-buildings, when Martha Turner died from injuries, some of which are very similar in character to those inflicted upon the unknown woman found in Bucks-row.

Also similarly, though Smith was stabbed with a blunt instrument, she was still stabbed in the same manner. I have stated before that if the killings stopped with Nichols, the connection between the three killings would be stabbed in the privates, closely fitting in with the Millwood attack.

[Mr Lucky]

So presumably, you would demand this for all the witnesses. And, as none of them did own up to causing the blood to appear on both the inside & outside of the wrist, how do you suppose it got there?

Dr Phillips - "It's a mystery"

This isn't something I have had enough time to consider properly, but I suspect the blood is there due to the actions of the killer

[Wickerman]

Dr Phillips - "It's a mystery"

This isn't something I have had enough time to consider properly, but I suspect the blood is there due to the actions of the killer

Bear in mind, Phillips was not present when PC Lamb and Spooner gave testimony. Dr Blackwell was the first to comment on the hand bearing blood stains. Even Johnston said he did not notice it and he arrived before Blackwell, but gave testimony after him.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



It's not my theory, so it's not really for me to define.

As I said "I would like to ask those people"

Michael Richards offered the notion of "mimicry", rather than a direct copy.



Possibly all three, the first option is perhaps the likeliest for me.

Hi lucky
Thanks. I think of the two my second option would be the more likely, though improbable.

The first option, which you would find more likely -that is someone copying the original killer to throw off suspicion on himself is highly highly improbable. In the annals of crime I don't think this has ever been found.

I tend to think that the term copycat in this sense is a Hollywood invention, bordering on fantasy.

More than likely we had a plain old serial killer, and if there was a different killer for any of the victims, other than the c5, any similarities are purely by chance.

However, that being said, the only victim that I see that has any chance of being a copycat is perhaps mckenzie, if she was not a ripper victim.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Mr Lucky

Yes, a very interesting point (Nichols had two stabs, I believe), I don't remember these particular injuries being referred to at all in the press relating to the Tabram murder (though I haven't specifically looked to be fair, but if the information isn't in the public domain then it can not form part of an attempt at copying) but I think that this report in the Echo 31 August hints at these stabs to the privates (very similar in character);-.

Yes, sorry, Nichols was two stabs :-(

I`ve had a quick look and currenrtly can only find with reference to Tabram the mention of "The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth" Dr Killen at inquest
East London Observer Saturday, 11 August 1888.

Also similarly, though Smith was stabbed with a blunt instrument, she was still stabbed in the same manner. I have stated before that if the killings stopped with Nichols, the connection between the three killings would be stabbed in the privates, closely fitting in with the Millwood attack.

Of course, Smiths attack was also almost identcal to Alice Grahams in 1895 by Grainger. Where was the swine on those dates in 1888?

The privates run through most of the Whitechapel Murder cases, including the ones on parade at the Tower ;-)

I`ll search further for possibly less euphamistic references to the stab on Tabram`s privates in the press.

[Mr Lucky]

Bear in mind, Phillips was not present when PC Lamb and Spooner gave testimony. Dr Blackwell was the first to comment on the hand bearing blood stains. Even Johnston said he did not notice it and he arrived before Blackwell, but gave testimony after him.

Phillips examined the witnesses at the scene and the police searched them, the relative order they gave testimony doesn't really effect that.

Why would Dr Phillips state it was a mystery if there was a logical blood transference explanation?

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Abby

Hi lucky
Thanks. I think of the two my second option would be the more likely, though improbable.

Ok

The first option, which you would find more likely -that is someone copying the original killer to throw off suspicion on himself is highly highly improbable. In the annals of crime I don't think this has ever been found.

I tend to think that the term copycat in this sense is a Hollywood invention, bordering on fantasy.

Yes , I agree I don't think it very realistic at all, but it does seem to be suggested as explanation connected to the Kelly murder, quite regularly, both as a cover up for a ex-lover/lover, and all sort of conspiracy type motives

However, that being said, the only victim that I see that has any chance of being a copycat is perhaps mckenzie, if she was not a ripper victim.

Mckenzie? , very interesting choice, can you tell us a bit more ?

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Jon

I`ve had a quick look and currenrtly can only find with reference to Tabram the mention of "The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth" Dr Killen at inquest
East London Observer Saturday, 11 August 1888.

- three inches in length and one in depth - Ah - the stab that also has qualities of a cut, very similar to some of Nichols wounds, I remember this being discussed elsewhere now.

Of course, Smiths attack was also almost identcal to Alice Grahams in 1895 by Grainger. Where was the swine on those dates in 1888?

I know little of him (or Alice Graham to be fair).

The privates run through most of the Whitechapel Murder cases, including the ones on parade at the Tower ;-)

Boom! Boom!

I`ll search further for possibly less euphamistic references to the stab on Tabram`s privates in the press.

Thanks very much, I'll have another look myself, too.