What did the copy-cat killer copy?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo andy1867.

Or maybe as a distraction?..He hands here the mints/ lozenges/ nuts lol...to distract her and make his job a little easier?

Yes! That is the possibility I have been suggesting. It's misdirection. Manipulation is a relatively common attribute serial killers are adept to. If Stride was a victim of a serial killer of course. Wasn't Nichols' bonnet in her hand or close proximity to suggest she had had it in her hand? Maybe getting things confused here.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo C4.

Hello Dig,

No problem, really, I put my theories out there and hope they can stand on their little legs! (Except when I'm doing a spot of brain-storming, in which case anything goes!) Glad you think the idea plausible.

As far as copy-cats are concerned, I don't see why a copy cat would get more and more destructive as the murders went on. Surely a copy-cat would do just that, copy. It is no easy thing for a rational person, at least rational in the sense that they had a goal in mind, to rip open a human being.

All best wishes,

Gwyneth/C4

Well if a copycat had been reading the papers or maybe decided to put his own spin on it. Regardless for the moment, whoever would have copied would prob be just as twisted and sick. So one might argue there really wasn't much of a difference between any of them. Or something similar.

[Fisherman]

Hi Andy,

Cachous are small breath mints. Cashews are nuts.

c.d.

Actually, cachous are EITHER breath mints OR so called sweetmeats; mildly flavoured candy pastilles. And the cachous in Stride´s hand were named sweetmeats by more than one witness, as I recall.

The most famous cachous were the Cachous Lajaunie, and these were strong breath mints - but they went into production AFTER the Ripper killings.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

Pondering the hand tightening during the attack, that is actually one reflexive action that happens. I would suggest not if the attack took place over several phases - her being knocked down then dragged or forced into the yard then somehow incapacitated then her throat slashed - too many breaks and opportunities to relax the grip.
However if they were in her hand when she was attacked and it was sustained until death - an unbroken but relatively swift event - then a tensing and grasping would be a natural reaction - for some anyway. Others may go all limp and floppy.
It has to be remembered that humans don't all respond in the same way to a similar set of circumstances - it is a little like the fight or fly dilemma - is your instinct to turn and face a threat or to scarpa.
I know of an incident where someone was attacked from behind while holding a small bag in one hand and keys in the other and they kept hold of both while the fending off the assault.

[Wickerman]

However if they were in her hand when she was attacked and it was sustained until death - an unbroken but relatively swift event - then a tensing and grasping would be a natural reaction - for some anyway.

So long as we are seeing two separate attacks then yes, she was given the cachous after the first attack, as a gesture?, by whoever killed her in the darkness of Dutfields Yard.

[curious4]

Copy-cat

Well if a copycat had been reading the papers or maybe decided to put his own spin on it. Regardless for the moment, whoever would have copied would prob be just as twisted and sick. So one might argue there really wasn't much of a difference between any of them. Or something similar.

Hello Dig,

Well, you could argue that, as these murders were something completely new (at least since there had been a popular press) people wouldn't think in terms of things escalating. We would perhaps these days, having been fed juicy murders and murderers from the cradle so to speak.

All good wishes,

Gwyneth/C4

[Lechmere]

Wickerman
We have no idea how Stride came to possess the cachous.
I think their presence indicates a sudden attack.
I think she almost certainly entered the yard with the intention of transacting her usual business. The fact that they were in her hand indicates that she was killed a little before the 'transaction' was about to begin - was she going to eat one and them put them away and then get down to business -probably.

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
We have no idea how Stride came to possess the cachous.
I think their presence indicates a sudden attack.

I have a quote somewhere written by one of her majesty's Hangmen, in this he gave the reason why some subjects have an almost placid expression after death as opposed to others where the clear expression of agony remains on their face.
His explanation is that this is a result of the speed of the execution. A placid expression is an indication of a swift result, which is consistent with the placid expression seen on the face of Liz Stride.
An immediate clenching action of her fingers supports this same interpretation.

[Michael W Richards]

Wickerman
We have no idea how Stride came to possess the cachous.
I think their presence indicates a sudden attack.
I think she almost certainly entered the yard with the intention of transacting her usual business. The fact that they were in her hand indicates that she was killed a little before the 'transaction' was about to begin - was she going to eat one and them put them away and then get down to business -probably.

I knew eventually you would make a statement I agree with, I made it bold. As for "getting down to business", it interesting how some can casually assume something so pivotal in the case, ...why Liz Stride, a woman who cleaned for Immigrant Jews in the weeks before her death, is outside an Immigrant Jew club after a large meeting, held and attended by Immigrant Jews....one needing a cleaning I would think.

Cheers

[Lechmere]

There's another one of those invented connections.
There is absolutely no reason to believe Stride was a cleaner in the Berner Street Club. Why wouldn't the Club have said so if it were true? Why wouldn't anyone have said so?
There were a lot of Jewish people in the East End at the time.

My 'casual' assumption is based on Swanson and various other contemporary people's estimation. I didn't make it up - unlike the cleaner suggestion, which is pure invention.

[Observer]

myth upon myth upon myth

There is absolutely no evidence that Liz Stride worked for immigrant Jewish persons in the weeks prior to her death. None whatsoever. Zero zilch.

[caz]

Scrubber or scrubber?

And there is absolutely no reason why the club would not have shouted the fact from the rooftops if Stride had not been on the premises for immoral purposes (as was generally supposed), but for the perfectly respectable reason that she had been invited there to do a bit of paid scrubbing.

Moreover, nobody connected with the club could have had anything to fear from presuming (like most people at the time) that "another woman" had been struck down by the WM before she could get safely indoors and set to work for them.

Stride's killer could have brought the cachous with him, or even bought them from someone like Matthew Packer (he did sell sweetmeats apparently). When he got Stride just inside the yard he could have handed her the cachous by way of a sweetener (no pun intended, but gratefully received). As soon as she grasped them he could have taken her down before she had a chance to see what he was palming her off with. I doubt in those circumstances she would have relaxed her grip without nature forcing her hand, so to speak.

She was found without a penny, so were the cachous meant to be payment for services she was never going to render?

Nothing about her murder looks like a copycat crime to me - just to get back on topic.

Love,

Caz
X

[Mr Lucky]

I have a quote somewhere written by one of her majesty's Hangmen, in this he gave the reason why some subjects have an almost placid expression after death as opposed to others where the clear expression of agony remains on their face.
His explanation is that this is a result of the speed of the execution. A placid expression is an indication of a swift result, which is consistent with the placid expression seen on the face of Liz Stride.
An immediate clenching action of her fingers supports this same interpretation.

Hi Wickerman

How does the blood clots on the back of Strides other hand fit in with this scenario?

[Mr Lucky]

Chalk Messages pre-GSG

The first I know of , is the messages outside Barbers slaughterhouse, on Winthrop Street, left not by the killer but by an accuser.

Mr. Mumford, indignant, suddenly burst forth, "I don't know why that should be wrote on the gate against our chaps."
"What is written on the gate?" asked the reporter.
"Why, 'This is where the murder was done,'" exclaimed Mr. Mumford, "which is a great untruth ; and if you can put it right, as you say, I don't mind telling you what our work is." - - Echo 4 Sept 1888

The first which was allegedly left by the killer, the Hanbury Street message left according to this early report actually on the door of number 29

The people, and even the police, were so excited that all sorts of rumours were flying about. The woman living next door declared that this morning there was written on the door of No. 29, "This is the fourth, I will murder sixteen more and then give myself up." There was no basis for this story, however, there being no chalk mark on the door except "29." - The Star 8 Sept 1888

The message left on Kingsland Road, showing that Leather Apron was still in the eyes of some of the public, was the supposed murderer, here again the writer make a similar claim to that at Hanbury Street.

The police in this case state that they noticed when they went on duty on Thursday night they saw a very long chalk mark on the pavement in Kingsland-road, one directing point coming to the word "Look!" and, further on, "I am Leather Apron. Five more, and I will give myself up." Beneath this was a rude drawing of a man with a knife uplifted towards a woman. - Evening Standard 29 Sept.1888

The case mentioned above was the case against James Johnson brought by Elizabeth Hudson and it might be worth quickly examining, for those not familiar;-

At Dalston Police-court, yesterday, James Johnson, 35, a well-set, pale-complexioned, and clean-shaven man, with a strong American accent, giving his address as 18, Berdhurst-road, St. John's-hill, Wandsworth, and describing himself as a waiter, was charged wit assaulting Elizabeth Hudson by throwing her on the pavement, and threatening to stab her at Richmond-road, Kingsland. - Evening News 29 Sept. 1888

If well-set equalled broad shouldered, it’s rather similar to the incident seen by Schwartz!

Testifying on behalf of Hudson was Alice Anderson, describing herself as a feather curler of the same address as Hudson, who claimed to be a victim of an earlier attack by the same man, this was even reported in some provincial papers under the headline ‘Whitechapel Horrors - Two more attempted murders’. The case collapsed, largely as Johnson was unarmed and the women were described as disorderly woman, the Magistrate discharged him, remarking that he had got into an awkward scrape by his own silliness.

[Mr Lucky]

There's another similar witness report from Berner Street that resonates with an earlier incident reported in the press.

The case in question that may have created some discussion just before the double event was an attempted axe murder. On 27th September at Westminster Police-court, John Allison, New road, Battersea, was charged with attempting to murder his wife;-

When her husband, whom she had left a fortnight previously rushed at her with a chopper, which he took from under his coat. He said "Have you said your prayers?" - Daily News 28 Sept. 1888

On Berner Street the next day, William Marshall sees a couple nearby, the man was kissing the woman, and then the man said "you would say anything but your prayers"