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  • So just to come back on topic (though really liking all the discussions here) my conclusion to the initial question is that there was no gap rather there was no opportunity.

    Total speculation however. In this case all theories are ultimately valid.
    Best wishes,

    Tristan

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    • Jack was waiting for Barnett to move out of 13 Millers Court.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
        So just to come back on topic (though really liking all the discussions here) my conclusion to the initial question is that there was no gap rather there was no opportunity.

        Total speculation however. In this case all theories are ultimately valid.
        HI Losmandris,

        I tend towards the same thing. Patrols were ramped up and panic had set in, starting with Chapman but even more once the first "Jack The Ripper" letters were published. After that, the chance for an opportunity goes down, and the gap may simply reflect that. Obviously there are other possibilities, but that is so a simple explanation, reflecting the consequences of the changes in police activity and public atmosphere, that I'm not sure we need anything more than that.

        - Jeff

        Comment


        • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post

          given Annie appears to have been killed as the light was coming up (I know that too is not agreed upon, but I did say I was going to have to make some assumptions, so one more is not going make much difference by now), I think that suggests JtR must have felt he was close enough to "home" that he could risk it as all he had to do was hide any blood for a short journey. And if MJK was murdered in the morning as some argue, her location is also very close to that exit route (and the high interest zone itself).



          I have been making the same argument here myself about Kelly's murder.
          Since hers was the bloodiest murder and the one that ended later than any other (about 5.45 according to the evidence), he must have lived nearby.
          It is one of my three much-ridiculed arguments in favour of the murderer having lived in Spitalfields, another being that he headed for Spitalfields after committing the murders (as you also mentioned).

          I used to think the same about the Hanbury Street murder, but changed my mind!

          The thing that finally convinced me that she was killed much earlier than the coroner decided is the partially digested potato (which she was seen eating at 1.30) which together with the rigor mortis noted at 6.30 and the lack of sightings of her after 1.50, when she was heading roughly in the direction of Hanbury Street, convinced me that she was killed no later than 2.30.

          Even I was surprised.


          the piece of apron, while not noticed until 2:20 I believe, was in fact there earlier but it was overlooked


          According to Pc Long's testimony, he found the apron at 2.55 and he hadn't noticed it at 2.20.

          I think the best evidence is that it was left there some time between 2.20 and 2.55, which makes about 2.35.


          My theory is that the murderer went straight to Goulston Street, arriving near to Wentworth Dwellings at around 1.50 and upon seeing Pc Long on his earlier visit, went home.

          Another possibility is that he went home first and deposited the apron after cleaning himself and leaving the kidney in his room.

          Either way, it seems to me that he must have lived somewhere near Goulston Street.
          Hi PI1,

          I've drifted from the topic with my posts, so I'll try to keep this short. There are some discussions on the stomach contents and the progression of rigor on these boards (again, I forget which threads exactly, but under Chapman I believe). In the end, both are consistent with either time of death (meaning they do not rule out the 5:25ish ToD), so again, we're left with making no decision, and so going no further in our speculations, or taking our picks and crossing our fingers. If you're right, I'm wrong, and vice-versa. Who's to say?

          - Jeff

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

            Hi PI1,

            I've drifted from the topic with my posts, so I'll try to keep this short. There are some discussions on the stomach contents and the progression of rigor on these boards (again, I forget which threads exactly, but under Chapman I believe). In the end, both are consistent with either time of death (meaning they do not rule out the 5:25ish ToD), so again, we're left with making no decision, and so going no further in our speculations, or taking our picks and crossing our fingers. If you're right, I'm wrong, and vice-versa. Who's to say?

            - Jeff

            Yes.

            I know.

            There is no universal agreement about how long it takes for a potato to be digested, but based on my research, I would say that there seems to be a consensus that it tastes about an hour.

            I find this plausible because it isn't protein nor a food that is considered difficult to digest.

            There is another consideration and that is that unlike in Miller's Court, he was outdoors, and he knew that both prostitutes and residents used that yard, and the later it got, the more likely it was that a resident would enter the yard.

            It was too risky for him to have gone into it at about 5.30, especially as he was much more likely to have been noticed when leaving.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

              HI Losmandris,

              I tend towards the same thing. Patrols were ramped up and panic had set in, starting with Chapman but even more once the first "Jack The Ripper" letters were published. After that, the chance for an opportunity goes down, and the gap may simply reflect that. Obviously there are other possibilities, but that is so a simple explanation, reflecting the consequences of the changes in police activity and public atmosphere, that I'm not sure we need anything more than that.

              - Jeff
              I agree.

              I believe I commented previously that I once read that it was reported in newspapers, at the time, that prostitutes took to walking in pairs following the double murder.

              One can imagine what effect that would have had upon the murderer.

              I imagine in those circumstances he wouldn't have approached any of them.

              I don't know whether many were still walking in pairs by the time of the final murder, but it seems that he decided he wouldn't risk committing another murder outdoors.





              Comment


              • Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post

                I agree.

                I believe I commented previously that I once read that it was reported in newspapers



                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                  HI Losmandris,

                  I tend towards the same thing. Patrols were ramped up and panic had set in, starting with Chapman but even more once the first "Jack The Ripper" letters were published. After that, the chance for an opportunity goes down, and the gap may simply reflect that. Obviously there are other possibilities, but that is so a simple explanation, reflecting the consequences of the changes in police activity and public atmosphere, that I'm not sure we need anything more than that.

                  - Jeff
                  This might have slowed him up:

                  The Star, 12 October, 1888
                  "A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
                  A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."


                  Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888
                  "... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

                  Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888
                  "A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."
                  Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                  All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                  ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                    This might have slowed him up:

                    The Star, 12 October, 1888
                    "A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
                    A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."


                    Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888
                    "... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

                    Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888
                    "A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."
                    Interesting. I'm guessing this patient was not identified.
                    "The full picture always needs to be given. When this does not happen, we are left to make decisions on insufficient information." - Christer Holmgren

                    "Unfortunately, when one becomes obsessed by a theory, truth and logic rarely matter." - Steven Blomer

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                    • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      This might have slowed him up:

                      The Star, 12 October, 1888
                      "A Suspicious Infirmary Patient.
                      A report was current late last night that the police suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East-end infirmary. He has been admitted since the commission of the last murder. Owing to his suspicious behavior their attention was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries, and he is kept under surveillance."


                      Sheffield Evening Telegraph 12 October, 1888
                      "... The police now have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now inmate of the East End infirmary who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances."

                      Hampshire Advertiser, 13 October, 1888
                      "A report was current late last night that the police have good reasons to suspect a man who is at present a patient in an East End Infirmary. He was admitted since the commission of the last murder, and owing to his suspicious behaviour and other circumstances the attention of the authorities was directed to him. Detectives are making inquiries relative to his actions before being admitted to the infirmary, and he is kept under constant and close surveillance."
                      Hi George,

                      I've thought along those lines a few times myself; the "did he cut himself and get an infection after Eddowes" type thing. The idea coming from the signs he may have wiped his hands on the apron piece, possibly after cutting himself (not uncommon in knife attacks), and given the feacal matter present that easily could lead to infection putting him out of action for a month. While I don't think any such explanation is necessary given it's not a long gap in the bigger picture and that the "gap" can be explained by very mundane things (just couldn't find a victim due to the atmosphere of panic and increased police presence at the time), that doesn't preclude considering ideas that emerge from the evidence we do have.

                      These reports are tantalizing, but like so much, a lot that we need to know is not actually reported (like why is this person in the infirmary in the first place? It doesn't say he has any cuts on himself, only that the police became interested because of his suspicious behaviour - note, not because of a suspicious injury! So there's no indication he's got any wounds at all, just that he's acting odd).

                      Still, it would be interesting if the records for the East End Infirmary still existed. There could be something interesting if one looked at the admission records for that time period. I do think if any headway ever gets made it will only occur after new information comes to light; the current information from inquests and newspapers, etc, is just too sparse.

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                        Hi George,

                        These reports are tantalizing, but like so much, a lot that we need to know is not actually reported (like why is this person in the infirmary in the first place? It doesn't say he has any cuts on himself, only that the police became interested because of his suspicious behaviour - note, not because of a suspicious injury! So there's no indication he's got any wounds at all, just that he's acting odd).

                        - Jeff
                        Hi Jeff,

                        My first thought was a cut that had become infected, but then I realised that it could also have been odd behaviour. Wasn't Kosminski taken to an infirmary for that reason? For those who think that MJK wasn't a ripper victim (I'm not entirely convinced) there is the real possibility that an infected wound of that nature in those days may have turned septic and been fatal. A search of the death records might also provide some badly needed new information.

                        Best regards, George
                        Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                        Comment


                        • Maybe he injured himself during the Eddowes murder but he felt that it had healed sufficiently by November 9th and then the wound opened up again during the Kelly murder? A murder indoors might have been more manageable for an injured man but it’s hard to imagine the killer vetting potential victims to see if they had their own rooms.
                          Regards

                          Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                          “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                            Maybe he injured himself during the Eddowes murder but he felt that it had healed sufficiently by November 9th and then the wound opened up again during the Kelly murder? A murder indoors might have been more manageable for an injured man but it’s hard to imagine the killer vetting potential victims to see if they had their own rooms.
                            Vetting, no, but MJK may have volunteered the info unsolicited, so to speak.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                              Hi Jeff,

                              My first thought was a cut that had become infected, but then I realised that it could also have been odd behaviour. Wasn't Kosminski taken to an infirmary for that reason? For those who think that MJK wasn't a ripper victim (I'm not entirely convinced) there is the real possibility that an infected wound of that nature in those days may have turned septic and been fatal. A search of the death records might also provide some badly needed new information.

                              Best regards, George
                              Hi George,

                              I think he was, but isn't the timing wrong for this to be Kosminski? I suppose he may have been taken there more than once, though, so I suppose we can't rule him out (but of course, there were a lot of people in London, so without anything more to go on the odds are against it). And yes, if a wound became septic it could very well be fatal. I just can't see MJK as being a copycat situation, the injuries in the global sense are a repeat of the previous victims in nature, with the increase reflecting the fact he's got more time and more privacy. While we talk a lot about interruption in the Stride case, I think there's indications of possible interruption in the Nichols case (by the arrival of Cross/Lechmere and Paul, or at least Paul if one thinks Cross/Lechmere is JtR), the Eddowes case (PC Harvey on his patrol, or Morris opening the door during cleaning, take your pick), Chapman (all the activity in the yard next door, and he's trapped at that point and can't flee; when he gets away with it after Cadoche's 2nd visit he's probably feeling invisible), and of course Stride. Meaning, there is the possibility that Mary is the only case where he isn't interrupted (of course, there are debates around all of those, I'm just noting that the idea of interruption cannot be entirely dismissed in any of the cases other than Mary).

                              Perhaps then, therein lies the explanation for "the gap"? If by then he's had 4 close calls already, he may be adopting a more cautious attitude, and combined with the increased police presence, and the more cautious attitude of his potential victims, we're back to reduced opportunity?

                              - Jeff

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                                Maybe he injured himself during the Eddowes murder but he felt that it had healed sufficiently by November 9th and then the wound opened up again during the Kelly murder? A murder indoors might have been more manageable for an injured man but it’s hard to imagine the killer vetting potential victims to see if they had their own rooms.
                                If he injured himself during the Eddowes murder I think he must have recovered by the time of the Kelly murder. Hmmm, another thought, if he did, and allowing for a month for the cut to heal, perhaps the "gap" also reflects the fact that cuts to the hand might be viewed as highly suspicious at that time and he's laying low for that reason?

                                - Jeff

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