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  • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    Or it could simply be that he didn't feel the "motivation" to kill on a fixed schedule.

    c.d
    Absolutely, c.d., but I do think the extra heat and vigilance on the street may have contributed to a temporary drop in his motivation. He didn't want to get caught, so some effort to avoid it would make sense. He wasn't interested in moving his operations elsewhere, but he'd sense when his comfort zone was becoming a discomfort zone as a direct result of his latest violent excesses.

    There may also have been fewer women out alone on the streets during October, and those who braved it may have been more wary of strangers and inclined to stick with tried and tested regulars. The killer didn't operate in a vacuum, and might well have been caught if he had only reacted to what was going on in his own head, and had paid no attention to what was happening on his turf.

    Mary Kelly still had Joe Barnett with her during October, so she may only have ventured out looking for paying customers to take back to her little room when the killer was raring to go again. Did she think her room would protect her from the fate suffered by the women who were murdered in outdoor locations? Did she reject anyone who wanted to do business on the street, because she assumed that was how the killer operated? Was this why she had been letting female friends stay over, despite Joe's disapproval, because they too had been spooked by this outdoor mutilator?

    Love,

    Caz
    X

    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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    • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
      I wonder if the longest gap came after Kelly? The fact that winter was setting in could well have made a difference, less people out on the streets. And maybe, following the murder, prostitutes with rooms becoming more reluctant to invite clients back. Is there any evidence to suggest that soliciting decreased during the winter months? Be interesting to find out.

      Could the murderer have returned to his old habits or at least tried to with Alice McKenzie once summer had returned? He tries but Possibly ends up not being able to gain the same satisfaction after Kelly so ending up doing a 'half hearted' job? Hence the lack of mutilations? Maybe just picking at straws but possible? Maybe?
      I think Alice McKenzie was a Ripper victim. There could be endless possibilities why there was such a long hiatus. For me the most likely is that he was close to being identified after Mary Kelly's murder. I think the Police must have spooked him. Also the fact that George Hutchinson had stated the man he had seen with Kelly had seemingly been at Petticoat Lane Market on the Sunday may have also set alarm bells ringing. Could you imagine being the murderer reading that knowing you had been at the Market? The increased Police patrols also would have deterred the killer for a while. Then the opportunity wasn't there either. I think the killer of Alice McKenzie was JTR

      Comment


      • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

        Except that this wasn't someone trying to imitate a robbery scene by tipping over some furniture and stealing some things. This was someone who cut off breasts, ripped out intestines and cut the flesh completely from Mary's thigh. Are we to believe that he did all this while completely rational and thinking clearly and logically? What the Ripper did was frightening. What you are suggesting (that someone could do all this in an attempt to make it seem like a Ripper murder) is even more frightening. Why would you discount the killer of Kate Eddowes when we already know what he was capable of in favor of a copycat?

        c.d.
        Not sure how you think it would be impossible at the time. If the killer has a strong alibi for at least one of the other murders they can make a bid to have the one they do carry out look like it's another of the same unsolved collective case. It would be much harder to attempt that kind of extreme ruse now with modern policing/investigative techniques and general higher social surveillance. Though there have been some still trying to cover their murders by attempting to make them look like accidents or suicide. The Stephen Port case being a prime example.

        No killer was caught for any of the murders. No killer was caught for the torso murders either. Many pre-20th Century murders went unsolved in a way that's much more rare these days.

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        • Originally posted by Sunny Delight View Post

          The 5:30am killing has always bugged me though. We know it was JTR but what was he doing at half 5 in the morning?
          Didn't many pubs open around this time? Perhaps this was a more opportunistic encounter, saw Chapman on his way somewhere else and got chatting. I suspect he carried his knife with him, everywhere - at all times of day/night, just in case he got the chance.

          Comment


          • Well maybe the killer thought the job had been completed with Eddowes....not realising they had killed the wrong person at the time.
            just saying!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by spyglass View Post
              Well maybe the killer thought the job had been completed with Eddowes....not realising they had killed the wrong person at the time.
              just saying!


              Not so far fetched, Spyglass. In summary of the following two news clips, we have another woman with T.C. inked on her arm living in Dorset Street that was thought to be the victim in Mitre Square but was subsequently found alive. I often wonder if the wounds to the left arm of Mary Kelly may have been an attempt to hide a mark of some sort (such as a tattoo) to obscure identification?

              Scotsman
              1 October, 1888.


              "Up to a late hour in the evening the woman had not been identified, although several people had gone to the Bishopsgate Street Police Station and had seen the clothing. Two women who inspected this, and also saw the corpse, were certain that it was the body of a woman named Jane Kelly, but subsequently, on inquiries being made, it was found that this individual was still alive."

              and this:

              Echo
              October 2, 1888



              Comment


              • Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                I wonder if the longest gap came after Kelly? The fact that winter was setting in could well have made a difference, less people out on the streets. And maybe, following the murder, prostitutes with rooms becoming more reluctant to invite clients back. Is there any evidence to suggest that soliciting decreased during the winter months? Be interesting to find out.

                Could the murderer have returned to his old habits or at least tried to with Alice McKenzie once summer had returned? He tries but Possibly ends up not being able to gain the same satisfaction after Kelly so ending up doing a 'half hearted' job? Hence the lack of mutilations? Maybe just picking at straws but possible? Maybe?
                Hi Losmandris,

                It is certainly not out of the question, and although the police at the time had decided Alice was killed by a different person than JtR, and I believe the wounds to her abdomen were described as being due to fingernails rather than a knife (I hope I've not misremembered which case that description was used in! I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong), which would also lessen the similarities with the JtR murders. But, if my memory is playing tricks on me (it does that), then it is possible that the police dismissed Alice only because her injuries were less severe. That isn't a great reason in my opinion.

                - Jeff

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                • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

                  Hi Losmandris,

                  It is certainly not out of the question, and although the police at the time had decided Alice was killed by a different person than JtR, and I believe the wounds to her abdomen were described as being due to fingernails rather than a knife (I hope I've not misremembered which case that description was used in! I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong), which would also lessen the similarities with the JtR murders. But, if my memory is playing tricks on me (it does that), then it is possible that the police dismissed Alice only because her injuries were less severe. That isn't a great reason in my opinion.

                  - Jeff
                  August 14 1889: Testimony at inquest by Dr. George Bagster Phillips (recalled):
                  There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.
                  [Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.


                  Best regards, George

                  Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                  All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                  ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                  Comment


                  • Hi George.

                    Are you suggesting these are the only wounds to the abdomen? The hand print? There were about 15 knife wounds or scoring.

                    There was a major wound downward on the right side of the abdomen below the right breast, about 7 inches in length. Off of that cut (inner border) were 7 dermal marks or scoring ascending above the significant wound and 7 dermal marks or scoring descending lower than the major wound. One of the lower wounds was deepest at the pubic area. Phillips used the term "major" although he admits it did not open the abdominal cavity or divide the muscular covering.

                    As far as who thought it was a Ripper murder. Dr. Bond and Commissioner Munro are two off the top of my head.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by spyglass View Post
                      Well maybe the killer thought the job had been completed with Eddowes....not realising they had killed the wrong person at the time.
                      just saying!
                      Not Entirely out of the question spyglass, based on what we know .
                      'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                        Hi George.

                        Are you suggesting these are the only wounds to the abdomen? The hand print? There were about 15 knife wounds or scoring.

                        There was a major wound downward on the right side of the abdomen below the right breast, about 7 inches in length. Off of that cut (inner border) were 7 dermal marks or scoring ascending above the significant wound and 7 dermal marks or scoring descending lower than the major wound. One of the lower wounds was deepest at the pubic area. Phillips used the term "major" although he admits it did not open the abdominal cavity or divide the muscular covering.

                        As far as who thought it was a Ripper murder. Dr. Bond and Commissioner Munro are two off the top of my head.
                        Hi jerryd,

                        I was providing the testimony from Phillips to show that Jeff's memory wasn't failing him. The report of the inquest was by the Times and didn't mention the wounds that you detail. What is your source for that information please?

                        As far as the opinions of Bond and Munro as to whether she was a JtR victim are concerned, I am inclined toward their opinions rather than that of Phillips.

                        Cheers, George
                        Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.​ - LOTR

                        All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. - Bladerunner

                        ​Disagreeing doesn't have to be disagreeable - Jeff Hamm

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Hi jerryd,

                          I was providing the testimony from Phillips to show that Jeff's memory wasn't failing him. The report of the inquest was by the Times and didn't mention the wounds that you detail. What is your source for that information please?

                          As far as the opinions of Bond and Munro as to whether she was a JtR victim are concerned, I am inclined toward their opinions rather than that of Phillips.

                          Cheers, George
                          Hi George.

                          The source is the Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook. Skinner and Evans

                          MEPO 3/140 (Metropolitan Police File)
                          Last edited by jerryd; 02-01-2023, 03:19 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                            August 14 1889: Testimony at inquest by Dr. George Bagster Phillips (recalled):
                            There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.
                            [Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.


                            Best regards, George
                            Thanks George! Nice to see that I can, at times, recall some things. Although, as mentioned by jerryd, there was a knife wound to the abdomen as well, but not as deep as in the 1888 cases. Of course, that could be explained by having a different knife at the time, but it's a difference worth noting given the apparent escalation that had been occurring. On the other hand, the mutilations in the C5 may only appear to be escalating if, as is possible, the extent reflects time available. What I mean is, if JtR was interrupted by the arrival of Cross/Lechmere, then the mutilations of Nichols may be less than he intended and had he more time her attack may have more closely resembled that of Chapman, which makes the escalation rate much less pronounced. That would still mean that Alice's injury is much less than the others, and would require addressing (it might be as simple as he thought he heard someone coming? another interruption perhaps?).

                            - Jeff

                            Comment


                            • One of my favorite pet theories is the idea that Blotchy's face blotchiness was a symptom of septicemia​ from cutting himself on Eddowes. I won't post any pics but you can google image search "sepsis skin blotchy" and see what it does to the skin.

                              Comment


                              • As time passes I am more inclined to believe that Alice McKenzie was a victim of the same murderer. The way I see it is the culprit trying to get back into 'it' after a long gap. GAp possibly explained by lack of opportunity, too much police presence or down to weather related factors. Considering how before 1888 how rare this type of crime was, I am at a loss to see what the motive for killing Alice would have been? Not robbery, not sign of sexual relations being carried out first or rape. To simply cut someone's throat for seemingly no reason is surely indication that this person was serious disturbed. When you add in the fact that at least an attempt was made at mutilation (and as mentioned above the lack of this could be explained by the type of knife used or being interrupted by someone) the chances of this being the original perpetrator increase at least in my mind.

                                As mentioned it is the gap that explains this!
                                Best wishes,

                                Tristan

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