What had to have happened?

[Jon Guy]

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Just wondering why Lynn has only Nichols and Chapman as incapacitated .. !!"

Because, of the five who interest me, they were--without doubt--incapacitated.

Is Eddowes not in your five?
She was the only one thrown into the drunk tank before she was murdered?

[Jon Guy]

A VERY sick woman.

Yes, but not incapacitated.

[caz]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Annie incapacitated, Lynn?"

Absolutely.

1. She was terminally ill.

2. Her shaky gait suggested she was tipsy.

3. She stated that she had been ill and in infirmary.

4. "Must not fold up."

A VERY sick woman.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

So one physically VERY sick woman is accompanied by one mentally VERY sick, but surprisingly patient man (your suspect) from the main street through No.29 to the backyard, so he can butcher her only when and where the coast is clear? Does this really add up? Has he learned from a close call with Nichols that to attack out on the street itself was a pretty batshi* crazy thing to do?

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

no

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Is Eddowes not in your five?"

Certainly not. She had sobered up by 1.00, else she had not been released.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

impaired

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Yes, but not incapacitated."

Oh, very well--severely impaired then.

(And, given the bruise and black eye that Jacob sported when checked into the infirmary a few days later, it seems she could still attempt self defense.)

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

"Is Eddowes not in your five?"

Certainly not. She had sobered up by 1.00, else she had not been released.

Eddowes isn`t in your five ?

Anyway, Eddowes was paralytic at 8pm, so she would still be drunk at 1am.
The police may have regarded her as sober enough to release.

But Annie incapacitated - no

[lynn cates]

Once more, from the top.

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"So one physically VERY sick woman is accompanied by one mentally VERY sick [man]. . ."

PRECISELY.

". . .surprisingly patient man (your suspect) from the main street through No.29 to the backyard, so he can butcher her only when and where the coast is clear?"

Sigh. Not even close. As I have stated repeatedly, I don't believe JI had ANY intention of killing her when he was talking loudly against the shutters.

More likely that he tried to get money from her ("Will you?") and she misunderstood. They went quietly through the passage--each expecting to emerge with loose change. When he found out ("No."), he lashed out--like he did later on with Mary his wife--and began strangling her. It was only AFTER she were prostrate and had her rings taken (Recall his proclivity for saving costume jewellery?) that he began cutting her up as he would a dead animal.

"Does this really add up?"

Well, certainly not as you state it. But, then again . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

lucid

Hello Jon. Thanks.

As I suggested, have a look at her conversation with Hutt.

Lucid enough. Are you suggesting that the C of L constables released a drunken woman onto the streets?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

(And, given the bruise and black eye that Jacob sported when checked into the infirmary a few days later, it seems she could still attempt self defense.)

Oh please Lynn, your propaganda is wasted on me becasue I am aware of the facts.

The reason Isenschmid had bruises, and a damaged ankle, was because it took four policeman to restrain him when he was taken in.

This is exactly what I discuss in my article "Eggs On A Rating Jacob Isenschmid".

You have previously stated that the man seen by Mrs Fiddymont had a limp or pecuoliar gait, and Isenschmid had a dodgy ankle.

Now it`s the bruises on Isenschmid were caused by Chapman, and not when he was restrained by four coppers.

[Jon Guy]

As I suggested, have a look at her conversation with Hutt.

Lucid enough. Are you suggesting that the C of L constables released a drunken woman onto the streets?

Yes, at least one that wouldn`t lie acroos the pavement and draw a large crowd around her.

[lynn cates]

facts

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Oh please Lynn, your propaganda is wasted on me because I am aware of the facts."

Indeed? (See below.)

"The reason Isenschmid had bruises, and a damaged ankle, was because it took four policeman to restrain him when he was taken in."

Jon, you are referring to his incarceration over a year later. You might wish to go back to Chris Scott's Isenschmidt thread and read about that incident AND the date.

Now, about those facts . . .

Cheers.
LC

[martin wilson]

I can't see any evidence that conclusively proves that it was Annie who hit the fence.
Perhaps fell is a clue, as opposed to forcing down on to the floor, as the man seen by Elizabeth Long was taller than Annie, whether attacked from behind or the front,if they fell close to the fence, it's going to be the taller person that fetches themselves a fourpenny one.

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Martin.

"I can't see any evidence that conclusively proves that it was Annie who hit the fence."

Agreed. Doubt there is any.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Jon, you are referring to his incarceration over a year later. You might wish to go back to Chris Scott's Isenschmidt thread and read about that incident AND the date.

Now, about those facts . . .

I KNOW when Isenschmid was picked up by the Police and I KNOW when Chapman was murdered.

You are stating the bruises were from Chapman, so when was Isenschmid examined before he was picked up by the police and following the Chapman murder ?

[lynn cates]

1891

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Since you do not care to look at the admission record, permit me to paste it below.

"1) Facts indicating Insanity observed by Medical Man - On admission, 12th October, it took the united efforts of four policemen to hold him. He was incoherent in his speech, threatened to murder every one and he did not know what he was doing."

Year? 1891--three years AFTER Annie's murder.

". . . when was Isenschmid examined before he was picked up by the police and following the Chapman murder?"

The record of his bruising is from the infirmary records. I believe I posted those already? And the date was 12 September, 1888.

Cheers.
LC