What had to have happened?

[Jon Guy]

... I don`t have to time to check youir info just right now, but how many police did it take to take him in following the Chapman murder.

[lynn cates]

Cracknell

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Other than Cracknell, I know of no one.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

As I have stated repeatedly, I don't believe JI had ANY intention of killing her when he was talking loudly against the shutters.

More likely that he tried to get money from her ("Will you?") and she misunderstood. They went quietly through the passage--each expecting to emerge with loose change.

So he was sane enough at that point to ask this VERY sick woman politely (for money), rather than threatening her in any way or giving her the least cause for concern, and sane enough to go 'quietly' through the passage?

When he found out ("No."), he lashed out--like he did later on with Mary his wife--and began strangling her.

Hang on, I thought the "No" came straight after the "Will you?", while they were still out on the street. But in any case, why did he imagine she would cough up her loose change when they got to the backyard if she had not done so on the street? What did he think she was taking him through the house for? It seems not to have entered this lunatic's head to take any money she had by force and be done with it, so he asks her for some, waits patiently for her answer, and is then mightily offended and attacks her only when she can't or won't deliver? Mightily convenient if her "No" only comes when she is in exactly the right place to be murdered and mutilated in peace by such a VERY sick man.

It still doesn't begin to add up for me, I'm afraid.

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

no

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"So he was sane enough at that point to ask this VERY sick woman politely (for money), rather than threatening her in any way or giving her the least cause for concern, and sane enough to go 'quietly' through the passage?"

Politely? Actually, Mrs. Long does not record what he said--before "Will you." All we know is that she claims that:

1. He was near the shutters.

2. They were talking loudly.

"Hang on, I thought the "No" came straight after the "Will you?""

Actually, when he asked, "Will you?" she replied, "Yes."

"No" was heard by Cadosch around the time of his first trip to the privy; the fall against the fence, a few minutes later. (Of course, I must defer to Colin here. He's the expert on Albert.)

". . . to be murdered and mutilated in peace by such a VERY sick man."

IF she were murdered and mutilated by JI, then it was likely BECAUSE he was a very sick man, NOT in spite of it.

"It still doesn't begin to add up for me, I'm afraid."

Very right and proper. I am not the commisar of doxastic states. The most I can hope for is that one UNDERSTANDS, not necesarily assents to, my ideas.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Other than Cracknell, I know of no one.

Cheers.
LC

Well then I think you better wait for my article.

However, I will concede that I am not aware of any infirmary record from 12/9/88.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Politely? Actually, Mrs. Long does not record what he said--before "Will you." All we know is that she claims that:

I`m now thinking that it could have been Isenschmid and he was looking at Chapman and thinking out aloud "wool ... ewe" ?

[lynn cates]

infirmary record

Hello Jon. Thanks.

I await your article. But I DO hope you have not transferred his 1891 pinch to his 1888 one.

The infirmary record describes JI's arrival at the infirmary after he was pinched by Cracknell. It mentions a bruise and a blackened eye. Nothing about a twisted ankle.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Everything belonged to him.

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

Very droll.

His sheep fantasies--if he ever had any, would not have been at that point. He was more likely seeking change. And why not? Everything belonged to him.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Es para ti.

Hello Jon.

Just for you.

Isenschmid Jacob
Mary Isenschmid (Wife)
97, Duncombe Road

44

12th
Sept
1888

Clean

GH

Black eye &
Bruise on [?]Forehead

12th
Sept
1888

Order

12.9.88

Grove Hall Asylum

[Initials - JK?]

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

Hi Lynn,

A thousand apologies, I completely forgot that Chapman answered "Yes" to the man's "Will you?" and the "No" came later from the backyard - although I seem to recall that the sex of the naysayer could not be determined?

I used the word 'politely' to describe the man's question to Chapman because I doubt even a VERY sick woman would have 'quietly' accompanied anyone through the house to the backyard if she thought for one moment he wasn't on the level, or worse, was a man possessed (of a deadly weapon and by inner demons). There had been, after all, three horrific outdoor murders of unfortunates in similarly vulnerable and impoverished circumstances in the very near vicinity over recent weeks and months, one of them just a week or so before.

For Chapman to have made sheep's eyes at your man, he must have come across as trustworthy and good for a few pennies. So it would be some coincidence for me, and a very happy one for you and your man, if she only turned him into a frothing maniac when he was already in a safe enough spot to go to town on her without anyone seeing or suspecting a thing. A likelier scenario as far as I am concerned would be for Chapman to have secured the few pence on the street after saying "Yes", before going through to the backyard, where a customer might otherwise have been tempted to take whatever he wanted for free. Naturally her killer would have taken back his fee in this case.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon.

Just for you.

Isenschmid Jacob
Mary Isenschmid (Wife)
97, Duncombe Road

44

12th
Sept
1888

Clean

GH

Black eye &
Bruise on [?]Forehead

12th
Sept
1888

Order

12.9.88

Grove Hall Asylum

[Initials - JK?]

Cheers.
LC

Thanks for that, Lynn.

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello Caroline. Thanks.

"A thousand apologies, I completely forgot that Chapman answered "Yes" to the man's "Will you?" and the "No" came later from the backyard -"

None needed, but I appreciate that.

". . . although I seem to recall that the sex of the naysayer could not be determined?"

Right. As also direction.

"I used the word 'politely' to describe the man's question to Chapman because I doubt even a VERY sick woman would have 'quietly' accompanied anyone through the house to the backyard if she thought for one moment he wasn't on the level, or worse, was a man possessed (of a deadly weapon and by inner demons)."

Very well. I'd agree that, just as I think JI was confused, so also Annie had no idea about what was to come off.

"There had been, after all, three horrific outdoor murders of unfortunates in similarly vulnerable and impoverished circumstances in the very near vicinity over recent weeks and months, one of them just a week or so before."

Indeed. But I do think Smith and Tabram were rather distant memories. But, again, I agree that Annie did not feel there was any danger when she took him into the yard.

"For Chapman to have made sheep's eyes at your man, he must have come across as trustworthy and good for a few pennies. So it would be some coincidence for me, and a very happy one for you and your man, if she only turned him into a frothing maniac when he was already in a safe enough spot to go to town on her without anyone seeing or suspecting a thing. A likelier scenario as far as I am concerned would be for Chapman to have secured the few pence on the street after saying "Yes", before going through to the backyard, where a customer might otherwise have been tempted to take whatever he wanted for free. Naturally her killer would have taken back his fee in this case."

Thanks for that. My intuition is that, had Annie made 4d, she'd have hightailed it back to the lodging house. My best guess is that both she and Jacob met there as they intended to sleep in the passage.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

my pleasure

Hello Jon. Thanks.

The pleasure is all mine.

Cheers.
LC

[harry]

There were no witnesses to any of the murders.There were possible sightings of victims and killer before a murder took place.There are no sightings of a possible murderer in the immediate aftermath of a murder.Seems to be an absence of anyone,except killer and victim.S eems he was a very lucky killer,that these streets,supposedly teeming with people night and day,should suddenly become empty.Or was it something other than luck?

[Sox]

I think one of the most often overlooked parts of this case (especially given the arguments raging in the thread on anatomical knowledge) is that the killer tried to decapitate some of (if not all) his victims.