Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Errata]

On come on lets stay on the side of sensibilty !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I didn't say it changed anything. But if you have a bunch of factors that you took into account to arrive at a conclusion, that should be one of them. Sick bodies do not react the same way as healthy bodies (even as dead bodies), and diseases of the kidneys can result in either seriously compromised blood flow, or something reminiscent of that scene from The Shining. Or no change at all. It should be considered as something that might affect the outcome. That's all I'm saying. There are dozens of other factors, you weigh them however you like. But it's one of the many factors of greater or lesser impact.

[lynn cates]

separation

Hello Cris. Thanks.

Do you recall the snippet Howard Brown posted some time back? In it, the paper reported the difference in the mutilations of Kate compared to the former ones--as related by the medicos.

Evidentiary? As a hunter, I'm sure you can look at how a knife has been made to penetrate and thus separate the men from the boys.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

Short answer - no. Not only that but even an average doctor with a rudimentary knowledge of human anatomy (and that is what most doctors then and today have) would not be able to locate organs like the kidney in semi-darkness in about five minutes. You need considerable anatomical knowledge and ability.

Thats exactly what I what I have been trying to get the masses to understand for several years now but some wont and don't want to take notice.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Hunter]

sorry you two
Ed gein? Poacher?

You both could be no further from the truth.
I think your professions may have biased your analysis

Hi Abby,

Ed Gein checked out library books to learn about South Pacific headhunters and taxidermy. He was certainly no trained professional, but he learned what was necessary to fuel his morbid fantasy. I'm only suggesting that if the Whitechapel murders were the result of a serial killer as most assume, it could have been an individual who fantasised about the killing, (we have learned that they do that) and learned what he needed to fuel that fantasy by study or observation or both. And rehearsed what he would do in his mind repetitively.

He may have already had knife skills to some extent (many men would have back then) and that could account for some of the mutilations... (Hunter, slaughterer, even just someone from a rural background)... But the focus on the uterus requires a different set of skills (any good hunter can remove a kidney the same way Eddowes' was done by the way.) Maybe this was learned in the same manner as Gein did. That's all I'm suggesting. And this only applies to the serial killer theory. I don't presume to know who killed any of these poor women.

I mentioned poachers became they kill and quickly eviscerate animals in the dark to escape detection. I know because I have dealt with them. The point is, what was done in some of the cases here can be done in less than 5 minutes with only starlight and feel as a guide. And many more men back then (even in a Metropolis like London) than now could probably do what was done here. Most people who study this case have not grown up in a rural environment and really have little perspective on what could have been done. I know Prosector disagrees, but I believe Sequeira was probably closer than anyone as far as Eddowes' murder goes.

Physicians have a hard time comprehending this because they operate in a regimented, controlled environment with a special concern for the well being of the patient. Even an autopsy room is a controlled environment.

One last thing and I'll leave this thread for Trevor to troll through like he does every similar one...

I mentioned that I thought Dr. Phillips was way long in his timing of the mutilations perpetrated on Annie Chapman. In all fairness to him, he only offered an opinion on how long it would take him to do it. He was never prone to speculate beyond his own personal experience. That's the way he was.

These people really didn't know what they were facing through this whole series until they banged open that door at 13 Millers Court and saw the utter destruction before them. And by then, it was too late.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Ed Gein checked out library books to learn about South Pacific headhunters and taxidermy. He was certainly no trained professional, but he learned what was necessary to fuel his morbid fantasy. I'm only suggesting that if the Whitechapel murders were the result of a serial killer as most assume, it could have been an individual who fantasised about the killing, (we have learned that they do that) and learned what he needed to fuel that fantasy by study or observation or both. And rehearsed what he would do in his mind repetitively.

He may have already had knife skills to some extent (many men would have back then) and that could account for some of the mutilations... (Hunter, slaughterer, even just someone from a rural background)... But the focus on the uterus requires a different set of skills (any good hunter can remove a kidney the same way Eddowes' was done by the way.) Maybe this was learned in the same manner as Gein did. That's all I'm suggesting. And this only applies to the serial killer theory. I don't presume to know who killed any of these poor women.

I mentioned poachers became they kill and quickly eviscerate animals in the dark to escape detection. I know because I have dealt with them. The point is, what was done in some of the cases here can be done in less than 5 minutes with only starlight and feel as a guide. And many more men back then (even in a Metropolis like London) than now could probably do what was done here. Most people who study this case have not grown up in a rural environment and really have little perspective on what could have been done. I know Prosector disagrees, but I believe Sequeira was probably closer than anyone as far as Eddowes' murder goes.

Physicians have a hard time comprehending this because they operate in a regimented, controlled environment with a special concern for the well being of the patient. Even an autopsy room is a controlled environment.

One last thing and I'll leave this thread for Trevor to troll through like he does every similar one...

I mentioned that I thought Dr. Phillips was way long in his timing of the mutilations perpetrated on Annie Chapman. In all fairness to him, he only offered an opinion on how long it would take him to do it. He was never prone to speculate beyond his own personal experience. That's the way he was.

These people really didn't know what they were facing through this whole series until they banged open that door at 13 Millers Court and saw the utter destruction before them. And by then, it was too late.

Hi Hunter
Thank you for the detailed, well thought out post and I apologize for my previous short reply. You certainly offer another interesting opposite perspective, and I appreciate that.

However, Ed Gein was doing his thing in the privacy of his own home, with all the time in the world and mainly with external body parts. Other than the fact that they were both post mortem mutilators, I think they are vastly different, and is not a great analogy. To do what the ripper was doing took specific experience.

The ripper was literally operating on and dissecting women he had just violently murdered in the dark, with little light and keeping one eye out for approaching people.

He knew what he was doing and how to get what he wanted.

And how would you respond to the obvious surgical skill of where to cut the intestine and put over the shoulder and going around the belly button-which many experienced people say is the action of a surgeon?

Not saying your explanation is impossible, just highly unlikely IMHO, and that the most reasonable explanation is that the ripper had medical experience.

[curious4]

Hunter

I have to say that I agree with Hunter that Jack was more likely to have been a hunter than a doctor. Both have anatomical knowledge, but I would imagine that a hunter could work faster and probably manage better than a surgeon in the dark. A GP would have trouble, as he would be unused to using the knife. I have heard from doctors that a good deal of strength would be needed to cut up the bodies in this way.

Sticking my neck out, I would hazard a guess that Jack was taking his hunting skills to a new level and on women he considered less than human in any case.

Best wishes
C4

[Trevor Marriott]

I have to say that I agree with Hunter that Jack was more likely to have been a hunter than a doctor. Both have anatomical knowledge, but I would imagine that a hunter could work faster and probably manage better than a surgeon in the dark. A GP would have trouble, as he would be unused to using the knife. I have heard from doctors that a good deal of strength would be needed to cut up the bodies in this way.

Sticking my neck out, I would hazard a guess that Jack was taking his hunting skills to a new level and on women he considered less than human in any case.

Best wishes
C4

I dont think there were two many wild animals roaming the streets of Whitechapel in 1888

[Errata]

Hi Hunter
Thank you for the detailed, well thought out post and I apologize for my previous short reply. You certainly offer another interesting opposite perspective, and I appreciate that.

However, Ed Gein was doing his thing in the privacy of his own home, with all the time in the world and mainly with external body parts. Other than the fact that they were both post mortem mutilators, I think they are vastly different, and is not a great analogy. To do what the ripper was doing took specific experience.

The ripper was literally operating on and dissecting women he had just violently murdered in the dark, with little light and keeping one eye out for approaching people.

He knew what he was doing and how to get what he wanted.

And how would you respond to the obvious surgical skill of where to cut the intestine and put over the shoulder and going around the belly button-which many experienced people say is the action of a surgeon?

Not saying your explanation is impossible, just highly unlikely IMHO, and that the most reasonable explanation is that the ripper had medical experience.

To be fair, Ed Gein didn't start on live humans. Well, he probably killed his brother first, but he didn't mutilate him that anyone knows of.

He spent a LOT of time in the graveyards with corpses. Which means he was perfecting his skills in the dark under threat of discovery. You don't get a box of vulvas from two victims. Or send away for them in the mail.

It's also worth noting that not only did he not get caught meddling with corpses, no one knew that anyone had been disturbing the graves until after he was discovered. So even Ed Gein, not the brightest star in the sky, was capable of grave robbing without anyone noticing.

It's a potential arena for practice. Just an idea.

Gein isn't an analog. He's not like the Ripper. But some of his "training" illustrates what a determined amateur can accomplish. Gein trained himself to be the killer he wanted to be. Others have trained themselves to be the killers they want to be. It means that the Ripper could have done the same. I don't know if he did, I suspect he did for completely different reasons, or he didn't. But he could have. That's know behavior, and not uncommon in varying degrees.

[curious4]

That depends on what you mean by wild animals :-). But there were slummers, do-gooders and people from the countryside who had moved to London in search of work. Plus immigrants who would have hunted (or poached) in their home countries.

Best wishes
C4

[Rosella]

Generations of Londoners from the East End would go hop-picking each year towards the end of summer. It was an annual ritual and memoirs of the time speak about fish, pheasants and rabbits and local chickens being poached by them. I don't see why a Londoner wouldn't get used to skinning and gutting rabbits or other small mammals under those circumstances.

[packers stem]

Generations of Londoners from the East End would go hop-picking each year towards the end of summer. It was an annual ritual and memoirs of the time speak about fish, pheasants and rabbits and local chickens being poached by them. I don't see why a Londoner wouldn't get used to skinning and gutting rabbits or other small mammals under those circumstances.

....or maybe he swatted a fly on the back of his hand once?
I can tell you as someone who worked on market fish stalls for a few years that to clean a fish you just drag everything out...I suspect other small mammals or chickens might be similar...
Today billingsgate... Tomorrow the London hospital lol

[Trevor Marriott]

....or maybe he swatted a fly on the back of his hand once?
I can tell you as someone who worked on market fish stalls for a few years that to clean a fish you just drag everything out...I suspect other small mammals or chickens might be similar...
Today billingsgate... Tomorrow the London hospital lol

and this thread gets even wackier with each post

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

and this thread gets even wackier with each post

I'd like to pose you a question, Trevor. Clearly you don't think the mutilations were a means to an end, and that it was opportunistic organ thieves who really removed the missing organs from the victims. Then how does Mary Kelly's murder factor into all of that? She was completely butchered and her innards were almost ritualistically placed around the room. You can't put this one down to skullduggery in the morgue, and yet it leaves us with a killer who's gone from just slashing women open to full blown human dissection.

Don't tell me, different killer?

[Abby Normal]

To be fair, Ed Gein didn't start on live humans. Well, he probably killed his brother first, but he didn't mutilate him that anyone knows of.

He spent a LOT of time in the graveyards with corpses. Which means he was perfecting his skills in the dark under threat of discovery. You don't get a box of vulvas from two victims. Or send away for them in the mail.

It's also worth noting that not only did he not get caught meddling with corpses, no one knew that anyone had been disturbing the graves until after he was discovered. So even Ed Gein, not the brightest star in the sky, was capable of grave robbing without anyone noticing.

It's a potential arena for practice. Just an idea.

Gein isn't an analog. He's not like the Ripper. But some of his "training" illustrates what a determined amateur can accomplish. Gein trained himself to be the killer he wanted to be. Others have trained themselves to be the killers they want to be. It means that the Ripper could have done the same. I don't know if he did, I suspect he did for completely different reasons, or he didn't. But he could have. That's know behavior, and not uncommon in varying degrees.

Hi Errata
Thanks for the reply. But Im not really buying it. Unless the ripper was non medical but somehow got human corpses to practice on-he would have to basically make himself into a self taught surgeon-highly unlikely.

Gein learning about head hunting techniques, reading books and practicing on corpses-with EXTERNAL body parts no less-is worlds away from what the ripper was doing.

And by the way wasn't Gein bringing the corpses and or body parts back to house from the graveyard to experiment on? Didn't he bring the murdered womens bodies back to his house. Didn't he have a vehicle to transport the bodies? He wasn't doing everything in the cemetery was he? And even if he was doing a lot of mutilating in a cemetery its very very different then killing, cutting open, dissecting and removing organs in the middle of a busy city-isn't it?

I think the modern experts like Prosector, Sugdens, and others who have medical experience are probably dead on with their assessments. Even some of the contemporary medicos thought he had anatomical and surgical skills. And the ones who dismissed the idea-well I can just say I whiff a bit of indignance (or embarrassment?) on their part that this maniacal killer could have anything to do with their esteemed profession.

Modern experts also note the SPECIFIC acts of the ripper cutting around the navel and how he removed the intestines, among others, as exhibiting medical skill and experience. I really don't think a layman, butcher or hunter would do those things-or at least that its way more likely that someone with surgical skill would do that-correct?

Also, most if not all, of the witnesses describe a man in appearance and speech as at least a slightly higher class (for lack of a better word) than the victims or the common doss houser and indigent laborer. Which seems to line up more with someone who has medical experience.


My take is the ripper was probably a former military doctor or field surgeon. perhaps even failed medical student. Or even a former doctor who had declined through drink and/or mental illness.

[Errata]

Hi Errata
Thanks for the reply. But Im not really buying it. Unless the ripper was non medical but somehow got human corpses to practice on-he would have to basically make himself into a self taught surgeon-highly unlikely.

Gein learning about head hunting techniques, reading books and practicing on corpses-with EXTERNAL body parts no less-is worlds away from what the ripper was doing.

And by the way wasn't Gein bringing the corpses and or body parts back to house from the graveyard to experiment on? Didn't he bring the murdered womens bodies back to his house. Didn't he have a vehicle to transport the bodies? He wasn't doing everything in the cemetery was he? And even if he was doing a lot of mutilating in a cemetery its very very different then killing, cutting open, dissecting and removing organs in the middle of a busy city-isn't it?

I think the modern experts like Prosector, Sugdens, and others who have medical experience are probably dead on with their assessments. Even some of the contemporary medicos thought he had anatomical and surgical skills. And the ones who dismissed the idea-well I can just say I whiff a bit of indignance (or embarrassment?) on their part that this maniacal killer could have anything to do with their esteemed profession.

Modern experts also note the SPECIFIC acts of the ripper cutting around the navel and how he removed the intestines, among others, as exhibiting medical skill and experience. I really don't think a layman, butcher or hunter would do those things-or at least that its way more likely that someone with surgical skill would do that-correct?

Also, most if not all, of the witnesses describe a man in appearance and speech as at least a slightly higher class (for lack of a better word) than the victims or the common doss houser and indigent laborer. Which seems to line up more with someone who has medical experience.


My take is the ripper was probably a former military doctor or field surgeon. perhaps even failed medical student. Or even a former doctor who had declined through drink and/or mental illness.

Like I said, Gein is not the Ripper. They did different things, they wanted different things. I'm not saying that the specifics should even be compared. I'm saying that self taught serial killers can and do reach a certain level of expertise. Gein is an example of that. The Ripper could be a different example of that.

But I will say that this killer has very sharp evolution, but without the extra bodies we would expect to see to account for that evolution. There should have been a couple of extra murders to build up to Chapman after Nichols. There aren't, unless they are somewhere else entirely, like Latvia. It's odd. He was "training" somehow in that interim. Maybe more in intent than skill if you think he had the chops, but he was learning to want what he did to Chapman. Learning the skills to do it maybe, learning the logistics. So it's not unreasonable to ask who or what was he learning on. And I have no idea. But it makes me think of Gein and his graveyards and his books, I gotta say. Not because that's exactly what Jack did, but because it's sort of the go to example for a jump in evolution.

It's fine if you don't buy it. I don't know that I do. It's an idea I'm running with for the moment.