Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Rosella]

There are other trades that use knives of course, but surely a butcher, slaughterman or hunter, someone used to a layout of a mammalian body, would be quite expert in removing organs, especially if they'd worked in those areas for many years? The very fact that doctors at the time were in two minds about whether the killer had anatomical skills says something about it, doesn't it?

[Wickerman]

There are other trades that use knives of course, but surely a butcher, slaughterman or hunter, someone used to a layout of a mammalian body, would be quite expert in removing organs, especially if they'd worked in those areas for many years? The very fact that doctors at the time were in two minds about whether the killer had anatomical skills says something about it, doesn't it?

It's a bit more than that though Rosella. Prosector explained the tendency for a surgeon to skirt around the bellybutton, rather than slice directly through, and the reason why. Something that doesn't occur to a butcher, hunter or slaughterman.
This is the page:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=267052&postcount=81

You might also be interested to read this:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=267004&postcount=57

[Rosella]

Thanks Wickerman. Interesting! I just wonder though whether, if Jack was a butcher whether he could have picked up such knowledge from buying second hand medical books explaining these procedures. If he wasn't a surgeon or medical student he could be someone using a knife in his daily life and able to kill horses or pigs quickly. A self employed butcher for instance might experiment on them in that way before proceeding to humans.

[lynn cates]

pigs

Hello Gwyneth, Gareth, Rosella. Right you are. And the cuts SHOULD be clean, precise and skillful.

Pigs, eh? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Rosella]

Well, Dr Brown in his inquest deposition for Kate Eddowes did state '..It required a great deal of knowledge to have removed the kidney and to know where it was placed.' He went on to say, though, that 'Such a knowledge might be possessed by someone in the habit of cutting up animals'. Such as a slaughterman or butcher.
Drs Sequeira and Saunders attributed elementary anatomical skill to the killer and Dr Phillips thought that the mutilation in the case of Eddowes...'gave no evidence of anatomical knowledge in the sense that it evidenced the hand of a qualified surgeon' according to Swanson's report.

[Trevor Marriott]

Well, Dr Brown in his inquest deposition for Kate Eddowes did state '..It required a great deal of knowledge to have removed the kidney and to know where it was placed.' He went on to say, though, that 'Such a knowledge might be possessed by someone in the habit of cutting up animals'. Such as a slaughterman or butcher.
Drs Sequeira and Saunders attributed elementary anatomical skill to the killer and Dr Phillips thought that the mutilation in the case of Eddowes...'gave no evidence of anatomical knowledge in the sense that it evidenced the hand of a qualified surgeon' according to Swanson's report.

Does it make sense to suggest that a surgeon or someone within the medical profession would kill and remove organs when the same organs were readily available on a daily basis from mortuaries?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[curious4]

Innards

Thanks Sam and GUT. I did know the question came up at the inquest, but was unsure whether there were big differences between how to extract kidneys, etc etc. Now I know :-). Yes, Lynn, pigs as well - maybe the young master was fascinated when it was time to say goodbye to their porcine friends! Adding credence to my Posh Jack theory - one of three I am attached to. Theories, I mean, not pigs - disliked them since one bit me on the behind when I was a child at my step-grandfather's farm!

Best wishes
C4

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Sam and GUT. I did know the question came up at the inquest, but was unsure whether there were big differences between how to extract kidneys, etc etc. Now I know :-). Yes, Lynn, pigs as well - maybe the young master was fascinated when it was time to say goodbye to their porcine friends! Adding credence to my Posh Jack theory - one of three I am attached to. Theories, I mean, not pigs - disliked them since one bit me on the behind when I was a child at my step-grandfather's farm!

Best wishes
C4

You would have trouble finding a pork butcher in Whitechapel !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[curious4]

Pork butcher

Hello Trevor,

Well there was one at least :-). But I agree, any pig who decided to take a stroll through the starving slum dwellers would have had only the squeal left when it got to the other side.

Best wishes
C4

P.S. I did get it - harhar!

[packers stem]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really

[Trevor Marriott]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really

It is quite astonishing to think that people still believe the killer took the organs from the victims at the crime scenes given all that we know about the light and the condition of the bodies and the time factor !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[mklhawley]

Does it make sense to suggest that a surgeon or someone within the medical profession would kill and remove organs when the same organs were readily available on a daily basis from mortuaries?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Absolutely, if the serial offender motive was hatred of women, blaming them for his kidney and heart disease and JTR taking out was makes women different than men, the womb.

Quite the message.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

If someone pushed me into a dark alleyway with a corpse, threw me a knife and told me I had five minutes to extract a major organ or they'd kill my family, squeamishness aside I'd probably make a right dog's dinner out of it. I can't see why some of the medical men thought the killer was a layman... unless there was an ulterior motive.

Because they wanted to distance themselves and their profession from a maniacal killer.

[Abby Normal]

It seems that ripperologists who themselves are in the medical profession suggest not just medical knowledge but indeed surgical skill in the cases of Chapman and Eddowes...
Cant see any reasonable reason to disagree with them... Unless of course you're trying to push a theory about someone without the skills...
Seems we have this from prosector now and from nick warren. I remember nick giving an excellent demonstration at a conference regarding the degree of difficult in locating the kidney...
Given the darkness of mitre square, quite astonishing really

agree. And prosectors take on it just confirms it for me.

[Abby Normal]

Does it make sense to suggest that a surgeon or someone within the medical profession would kill and remove organs when the same organs were readily available on a daily basis from mortuaries?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Perhaps they were not in the medical profession any more.