Did he have anatomical knowledge?

[Trevor Marriott]

Certainly a hunter is not working under the same risks as the murderer of any one of these victims (unless he is a poacher)... but the same principles would apply if someone is bent in doing what was done.

Someone took the time to murder and eviscerate Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square. All of that took considerably more time than the short time required to remove the uterus and a kidney. Unless it is now suggested that all the murderer did was just kill her.

At last you have seen the light !

[Simon Wood]

Hi Cris,

How much time are you allowing for the surgical removal of the uterus and left kidney?

And how much "considerably more time" are you allowing prior to this for the perpetrator to woo, silently subdue and kill Eddowes, set her on the ground, rummage through her pockets and strew various items around, disarrange multiple layers of clothing to get at her upper torso and then open her up?

Regards,

Simon

[Hunter]

Hi Simon,

I see no evidence that these organs were necessarily surgically removed. And that may have been a flaw in Dr. Brown's experiment. Prosector has made some interesting points that deserve consideration. But for now, I see someone who knew where these organs were and effectively removed them with a long sharp knife. A good hunter can have a doe's uterus and kidney out in seconds. The cutting and evisceration necessary prior the this from 3 to four minutes.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hi Simon,

I see no evidence that these organs were necessarily surgically removed. And that may have been a flaw in Dr. Brown's experiment. Prosector has made some interesting points that deserve consideration. But for now, I see someone who knew where these organs were and effectively removed them with a long sharp knife. A good hunter can have a doe's uterus and kidney out in seconds. The cutting and evisceration necessary prior the this from 3 to four minutes.

Where there is a will there is a way.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Cris,

Thank you.

I'm trying desperately hard to imagine either Aaron Kosminski or Montague Druitt as the perpetrator.

Regards,

Simon

[Observer]

Indeed, Observer, and as usual you live up to your name well.

I don't understand why Macnaghten thought Cutbush was Supt. Charles Cutbush's nephew, unless it was an assumption that he didn't bother to check out. Maybe he thought this was good enough reason to prepare his three 'more likely' in case of need.

Love,

Caz
X

Errr apparently not, in an earlier thread I mistakenly referred to Dr Wynne Baxter, when in actual fact I meant Dr George Bagster Phillips.

Regarding Macnaghten and Cutbush. Well, what can you say? He muddled their relationship. There's also the gaff regarding the City policeman. To be fair he's not the only culprit (among senior police officials) when it came to inaccurate reporting of the case.

Regards

Observer

[DVV]

Tell me, how much experience did Dr. Bond have of cutting into bodies, alive or dead, extracting kidneys or wombs and sewing them up again? I thought Prosector said he was a surgeon in the Outpatients' department.
Love,
Caz
X

But who am I to compare the competence of Bond and Prosector ?

The former has worked on MJK post-mortem and was chosen by the Assistant Commissioner at a time the police felt they had "no reliable opinion for our guidance as to the amount of surgical skill and anatomical knowledge probably possessed by the murderer or murderers."

The latter has just started a very interesting thread on the Casebook in 2013.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

All
Just a reminder. Prosector is not saying the killer was a Dr or someone with any real surgical experience. Just that they may have been a failed medical student ("enthusiastic amateur"?)and or someone who witnessed autopsies and or had good manual dexterity and or witnessed jewish butchering customs (although not a Jew himself).also known to police but his name does not come up.

So in terms of ruling out suspects- it would rule out any Jewish suspects (koz and the rest of the gaggle of crazy Jewish "suspects" )and any suspects that had surgical experience (chapman?).

My guess is that his suspect is one of the three nameless insane medical students mentioned in Sugden.

[Observer]

If JI, a man with anatomical knowledge of animals imagined that Annie Chapman was a sheep, then why try to strangle her?

Surely he would have realised that it's pointless trying to strangle a sheep. I mean think of all that wool around the neck area. The wool would have acted as a shock absorber. JI would have known this.

And of course Annie Chapman's rings were missing.

Now, even a madman would have realised that sheep don't wear jewellery. If JI thought Chapman was a sheep why was he drawn towards her rings? I mean, bulls have rings through their noses, but sheep, as far as I'm aware, do not wear jewellery.

Of course, in his deluded madness, JI could well have imagined that some sheep wore cheap jewellery, so it's possible that he imagined the sheep wore those two missing rings. Although how they would fit over a cloven hoof presents some problems.

Anyhow, he takes the rings, but the thing is dear reader, those two rings were not found among his possessions after his arrest. They did find a pair of crappy paste and white meatal ear-rings belonging to a Friesian named Belinda, but not Chapman's rings.

What do I make of this? Well, either JI was not the man who murdered Annie Chapman, and never owned Chapman's rings. Or, he did in fact murder Annie Chapman and gave the rings to a hussy of a goat from Wapping Steps, in pledge of matrimony.

[lynn cates]

Whom?

Hello Simon.

"I'm trying desperately hard to imagine either Aaron Kosminski or Montague Druitt as the perpetrator."

Why? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

right doctor

Hello David.

"The former has worked on MJK post-mortem and was chosen by the Assistant Commissioner at a time the police felt they had "no reliable opinion for our guidance as to the amount of surgical skill and anatomical knowledge probably possessed by the murderer or murderers.""

Bond was at the post mortem on "MJK." So I am MORE than willing to accept his dictum that no skill was involved.

But when he speaks of the other four--from notes, no less--I am less inclined to believe.

So, if I wish to understand Annie and Kate's respective cases, it behooves me to check with Phillips and Brown.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Beware. At the end of this thread the only possible perpetrator will be Prosector's suspect.
Not a butcher. A deep knowledge, but, hey, not a surgeon.
Etc, etc.

[lynn cates]

estudiante

Hello Abby.

"Just that they may have been a failed medical student"

Could this possibly be the reason that SY were eager to find an insane medical student?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bias

Hello David. Thanks.

Suspect bias? Nah, never happened before.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Lynn,

Your irony is not lost on me.

Regards,

Simon