What's your profile for Jack?

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

You may go with whatever you like. Answer? Did not see one.

I have NEVER suggested the police lied. Why should they? They had very old information.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nice speech

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Squalor? Kidney was that bad?

But if I ever need an emotive speech writer . . .

Cheers.
LC

[tji]

Hi Lynn

If it is recorded once that one was a prostitute, one has, ipso facto solo, a record as a prostitute. I spent 13 years as a dustman--so I have a record as a dustman. But I haven't done that kind of work for many years.

I have to go with Jon's answer here Lynn, especially as it is such a good one.

Lie? Who said anything about a lie? Too many eggs in the pudding.

Sorry you lost me with this. Not sure what you exactly mean.

"Doss money, drink money, money for clothes etc."

Very well. But this does not sound like desperation.

Ever seen a woman clothes shopping?!
I guess it depends on your definition of whether or not you have no money for drink or a bed as desperation?

All? What is the "all" under discussion?

The points I put forward in earlier posts were the 'all'.

Tracy

[Jon Guy]

PRECISELY, Observer
If only we could have got a message to Stride telling her not to hang around dark entrances at night as her type was EXACTLY what the Ripper was looking for.

[Observer]

Bravo Jon. Proof of Liz Stride's financial situation is reflected in the assistance she received from the Swedish Church On September 15th and 20th of 1888. Kidney was out of her life from the 25th of September, it's little wonder she took to the streets on the 29th/ 30th of that month.

Regards

Observer

[Jon Guy]

If it is recorded once that one was a prostitute, one has, ipso facto solo, a record as a prostitute. I spent 13 years as a dustman--so I have a record as a dustman. But I haven't done that kind of work for many years.

So, if we ever hear that you have been out for work for a number of years, living from day to day in squalor and living with no means of support, and someone then spots you at 6am standing near the dustbin collection point on collection day we should assume you were on a date ?

[Patrick S]

Patrick

So of the six (expanded from 5 just because) victims we'd have something like this?

Tabram = angry customer (soldier?)
Nichols = Jacob Isenschmid
Chapman = Jacob Isenschmid
Stride = Michael Kidney (?)
Eddowes = ?
Kelly = Hutchinson or Barnett

I've said this before, since we know so little, it sounds as good as anything else. I'm troubled that in order to make the theory work we have to discount completely the contemporary policework and assume it was almost completely incompetent.

A final note: I'd suggest that there WAS a Jack the Ripper even if he only killed Nichols and Chapman! It's just too good a name to abondon completely.

Tabram- I can deal with that.
Nichols-Works
Chapman-Works
Stride-Unless I am completely mistaken, Kidney had an alibi. So no.
Eddowes- If the assumption is that Nichols and Chapman's killer was incapable of committing the act on Eddowes then we are left with a big question mark indeed. Really muddles things up.
MJK-Barnett also had an alibi and was cleared by the police so no. Hutchinson however is not so clear so okay possibly.

Yes great name but possibly irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

Kidney did have an alibi. So did Barnett, I believe. The list was more a question to Lynn. I find her argument intruiguing, if not - at this point - wholly convincing. I have a hard time attributing the murder of Eddowes to anyone other than the killer of Chapman and Nichols. There are too many similarities and, as far as I'm aware, no plausible alternative suspects. As well, I'm not ready to exclude Kellly. I do think the prostitution angle is a bit overblown. The killer(s) preyed on women who were on the streets at a certain time of night/morning. Obviously, many women around at that time would be selling themselves.

[lynn cates]

not surprising

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

No. And if she were soliciting when she died, I should not be surprised. But then all those blokes were different men and all of them clerkly.

But perhaps she preferred older men who were scholars?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Think you might have missed some stuff do to my lack of fonts. Anyways I'll ask the question here.

If it were proven that Stride did engage in prostitution would you be surprised by that?

[lynn cates]

key

Hello (again) DLDW. You are wise to omit Kidney. You are entirely right, however, to be puzzled by Eddowes--I think she is the key to unlocking this puzzle.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

big picture

Hello DLDW. Thanks. Yes, many questions remain. Still trying to get the big picture.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

record

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

"I personally don't have any, no, however given that there was a record from the time of her being registered as a prostitute, then I have to err on the side that she had a record for being a prostitute."

If it is recorded once that one was a prostitute, one has, ipso facto solo, a record as a prostitute. I spent 13 years as a dustman--so I have a record as a dustman. But I haven't done that kind of work for many years.

"Why would someone at the time lie about this. . .?"

Lie? Who said anything about a lie? Too many eggs in the pudding.

"Doss money, drink money, money for clothes etc."

Very well. But this does not sound like desperation.

"No it doesn't, however put it all together and it does point in that direction."

All? What is the "all" under discussion?

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Patrick

So of the six (expanded from 5 just because) victims we'd have something like this?

Tabram = angry customer (soldier?)
Nichols = Jacob Isenschmid
Chapman = Jacob Isenschmid
Stride = Michael Kidney (?)
Eddowes = ?
Kelly = Hutchinson or Barnett

I've said this before, since we know so little, it sounds as good as anything else. I'm troubled that in order to make the theory work we have to discount completely the contemporary policework and assume it was almost completely incompetent.

A final note: I'd suggest that there WAS a Jack the Ripper even if he only killed Nichols and Chapman! It's just too good a name to abondon completely.[/QUOTE]

Tabram- I can deal with that.
Nichols-Works
Chapman-Works
Stride-Unless I am completely mistaken, Kidney had an alibi. So no.
Eddowes- If the assumption is that Nichols and Chapman's killer was incapable of committing the act on Eddowes then we are left with a big question mark indeed. Really muddles things up.
MJK-Barnett also had an alibi and was cleared by the police so no. Hutchinson however is not so clear so okay possibly.

Yes great name but possibly irrelevant.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"If it looks like a rose. . ."

Or was it a geranium? Perhaps a dahlia? And the fern--maidenhair or asparagus? See what I mean?

I think it is pretty certain it is a flower. That was what I was getting at.

"There is evidence to support the fact she had prostituted before."

Yes, aged 16 and in Sweden. When I was 16 I was very anti-intellectual--posh toffs, not down to earth.

Your parallel is too inexact to be useful.

"Not sure cleaning alone would be sufficient to support her if she was in the clutches of a binge portion of a cycle."

Do we know she was a binge drinker?

No, not for certain of course, but we do have a source that supports the notion of her going off due to drink. The validity of the claim can't be substantiated. I refuse to disregard it without something fairly solid. Not enough data exists to warrant that.

"We are not certain of the specifics of anything other than a woman was out late on the street possibly seen with multiple men that evening."

Indeed. So why not suspend at that point, or perhaps do a double flow chart?

Given the very little factual data and the unsubstantiated stuff as well we are only left to assumption. Which is fine so long as it isn't forgotten how far, or not so far, the hard data goes. Balance of probabilities. Reduce the field down as best as possible and work from there. Given all that, Stride soliciting herself is well within reason. That does not however make it the only or most probable scenario. Question: If evidence surfaced that proved Stride did engage in prostitution at that time, would you be surprised?

Cheers.
LC

Eh, you know the innerworkings of this stuff better than I. So I guess I'm just trying to keep you honest. So you can help keep me honest. Always a pleasure.

[tji]

Hi Lynn

[QUOTE]

Hello Tracy. Prior convictions? For D & D, yes. If you have any about soliciting, I'd be delighted to see it. There is a story about one such, but I have yet to see the source.

I personally don't have any, no, however given that there was a record from the time of her being registered as a prostitute, then I have to err on the side that she had a record for being a prostitute. Why would someone at the time lie about this, and I am sure if it weren't true then she would have had something to say about it!

Occasional prostitution to feed the children? May not apply to Liz.

Doss money, drink money, money for clothes etc.

Out late at night? Many women are. Not sure that makes them prostitutes?

No it doesn't, however put it all together and it does point in that direction.
If I find an animal in the street that looks like a dog, barks like a dog, and vet records say it is a dog, does that make it a cat?

Tracy