Left or right handed.

[Wickerman]

And in her right hand.......

[Errata]

Door knobs are on the left when we face the door in question. Which in this case puts the knob near the outside wall by the windows. And as it is an external door, it should push in and not swing out. Which definitively means that it could have run into either table. It could have clipped the window side table if it was pulled towards the door, or it could have slammed into the bedside table if it was pulled out enough to be in the path of the swing. Both tables could have started out in completely different locations, or both tables could have been pulled only slightly out of place.

There were exactly three people besides the killer in a position to know. Her ex boyfriend, who had lived there and presumably would mention if something wasn't where he last saw it, her neighbor lady who had been in the apartment the evening of the murder and would have probably remembered if she had to shove the door against something to get it open or at least have known where the tables were, and Mary herself. I think if the cops wondered whether or not the tables were moved, they would have asked. And that answer would theoretically come out at the inquest, since it would answer some very pertinent questions about how he got in, did he bar the door to prevent intrusion, and was the scene disturbed before they got there? Now I recall her ex saying something about things maybe having bee moved around, but I can't for the life of me remember where I read that, so I could be making it up. But the answer to this one is not in the physics. The physics say either is possible.

But doorknobs have been on the left for a very long time. Since the common use of keys. The assumption is that you need your right hand to manipulate the key.

[Wickerman]

Seems you didnt trust the sketch much Jon, it shows that the knob on the outside was on the right hand side of the door, thats because, as I said, it swung inward to the left. ...

Hello Michael.

The swing of the door has never puzzled me, I always thought everyone saw the door opening in the same direction, it was a surprise to me to see you thought differently.

One question, how do you envisage anyone opening the spring-lock by reaching through a broken window if, the door handle/lock was on the right side of the door?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To answer both you Jon and Zena and DRoy, the latch assemblies used at that time....and it was probably an earlier example on that particular door, had a long arm that was used to set the latch in its cradle. Ill post a few pictures I found a minute ago. In a conversation with Sam Flynn on here quite a few years back....maybe 7 or 8, we discussed this very thing and some measurements were estimated that make it quite possible for someone to reach through the lower right broken pane and access the latch on the back of the door. It was less than 2 ft from that window closest to the front corner to the door side wall. The latches would have been mounted so that the latch was almost accessible from the middle of the door, not on the left side, as you look at the door from inside the room.

To your point Jon, I was under the same impression as you because we never got into a debate about which way the door swung before. I assumed everyone had that opinion. Live and learn.

Here are 3 latches which Im sure were not the type of the one found on that door, but they do give you some idea of the sizing.

[Wickerman]

Hi Michael.

Did you ever get the chance to discuss the lock found by Bob Hinton?

If you care to scroll down to the bottom of this archived thread...

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6718.html

Read the post below the pics to describe what each pic is showing.

.

[DRoy]

Thanks Michael,

I did a bunch of research on the door latches as well and I remember finding way smaller ones. Do those look the type of handles and latches that would be in 13 Miller's Court? Not trying to be argumentative! I'd just assume they would be of the smaller and cheaper variety.

Did all doors really open the same way with knobs on the same side? My house has knobs on both sides and open both ways.

I'd still like to hear opinions about the windows able to open. Can anyone confirm they could open? If they could, why reach through broken glass? Can anyone have fit through the window if they could open?

In looking at MJK1, it seems the photo was taken from the left window, not the right. I didn't think there was broken windows on the left so how was the photo taken? Was the window opened?

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Did all doors really open the same way with knobs on the same side? My house has knobs on both sides and open both ways.

Well I'm glad you asked this type of question because when I was a lad I do remember noticing what I though was an oddity in the houses we and our friends lived in.
I noticed that even when the upstairs rooms were the same size & orientation as the downstairs rooms, the doors often opened in a different direction.
It was years before an old man who had been in the building trade explained to me why that was.

The reason, Victorian Sensibilities.

Apparently, from the Victorian age onwards, a door to a bedroom was designed to have the lock on the side closest to the nearest wall.

Assume that the bedroom door was not exactly central on the wall, it was lets say nearest the left side wall of the room. Due to Victorian sensibilities, it was deemed propper to have the door largely obscure the internal view of the bedroom as it is opened, the bedroom being a private place.
The door handle/lock was then mounted on the left side closest to the nearest wall, just like Kelly's room, which was essentially in modern terminology, a Bedsit.

However, downstairs rooms, kitchens, parlours, etc, the opposite view was taken. When a servant or guest enters your entertaining room the door should open with the hinge side closest to the nearest wall so as to fully expose the view of the room on opening.
Does that make sense?

In looking at MJK1, it seems the photo was taken from the left window, not the right. I didn't think there was broken windows on the left so how was the photo taken? Was the window opened?

The camera man was let into the room before the post-mortem began.

.

[DRoy]

Zena,

Good observations! Thanks for posting them. Welcome to the boards by the way

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Thanks everyone,

In looking at the photo of 13 Miller's Court and although the angle isn't great, it seems odd to have the door swing to the left (from outside the room) since it looks like a small wall. The door would bang against the window every time it was opened.

I think the door must have swung from left to right but like Errata said, could have hit either table. Most likely though, the bedside table IMHO.

Regarding MJK1, was there enough room to set up the camera in the room? If so, they must have moved the table under the window. I think this again is proof furniture was moved around which again means at least in MJK's murder it isn't easy to plead whether the killer was left or right handed.

DRoy

[Zena]

Zena,

Good observations! Thanks for posting them. Welcome to the boards by the way

Cheers
DRoy

Thank you!

[niko]

Left to right.

Hi everyone, I have been looking at some images of 13 Millers court, in one newspaper sketch there is a woman opening the door from the outside, wich to me clearly indicates that the door opens from left to right, placeing the latch near the window, I alo believe the latch could be opened from the broken window, all the best.

Niko

[DRoy]

Niko,

That photo has already been shown by Wickerman to support the door opening from left to right. As much as I tend to agree with you and him, it's difficult to accept a drawing as evidence.

Regarding the windows being able to open, i've only so far been able to find discussions from people like us on the boards who've speculated they could be opened. Some feel the photo outside 13 Miller's Court shows "gaps" in the window which could indicate they could open.

If you're aware of evidence other than an artist's drawing or our opinions i'd appreciate it if you'd post it.

Cheers
DRoy

[Errata]

Did all doors really open the same way with knobs on the same side? My house has knobs on both sides and open both ways.


Cheers
DRoy

Exterior doors have the knob on the left and push inward. So as not to accidentally whack a pedestrian on your way out of the house I imagine. Inside the house knobs are on the left except in case when opening a door in that direction would either be impossible or block another doorway. For example my upstairs hall closet has a knob on the right, because on the left it would block the bedroom if opened. Which doesn't matter unless someone decides to shut the door and they can't see you are on the other side of it. The downstairs hall closet knob is on the left. In older houses with somewhat wonky layouts, interior doors with the knob on the right can be more common. But the exterior door knob is on the left.

[niko]

Why doubt ?

Hi everyone !! I think the sketch I posted was from a newspaper at the time of the murders, so if an artist was sent to do a sketch of 13 millers court he would draw as much detail and corectly as possible, I supose the artist was a professiional, so I doubt if the door knob wa on the right he would draw it on the left. I agree that the majority of front door's the lock is on the left, although my grandmother's house front door the lock is on the right, but I still think that the sketch is correct and the lock is on the left, all the best.

Niko

[Michael W Richards]

Forgive me for attempting to re-route the discussions back to the original question here, weve been as tangential long enough I think.

It would seem that there are a few different opinions on how this murder began and was conducted, and that some issues regarding the preferred hand of the criminal might not be satisfactorily clear as a result.

So lets just use what is indisputable. The dissection of Mary Kelly appears to have been done from the left hand side of the bed. There is bedding stuffed down between the partition wall and the bed and there is very little space as it is. It also would make no sense to imagine that the killer moved the bed away from the wall so he could use the right hand side, not with the entrails placed on the nighttable on the left side. It also makes little sense to imagine he acted as if oblivious to the fact that he was inside a house with other tenants above him. The noise factor would be considered.

The physical act of slicing parts and placing them behind himself, to his right, as I stated before, seems to me to suggest that a left handed man would have far less awkward pivots to make. Whether he keeps the knife in his hands and grabs the severed parts with both hands, or whether he slices with one while holding the skin somewhat taut until its needed to remove the materials, I really feel that a reconstruction of the probable sequencing would reveal that a left handed man is indicated.

If he stood where I suggest and was right handed, I could see him first lifting and placing the nighttable on his left..nearer to the fireplace. Not a huge noise risk in that action. And easier to cut and place for him.

But theres no evidence that either table was not in its same position, roughly, as they would have been before that night.

Best regards