Left or right handed.

[Errata]

Hi everyone !! I was wondering if the other victim's throat wound's could shed some light to wether the murderer was left or right handed. Here are some description's of the neck wound's from the victim's inquests.

Nichols - left to right.

Stride - left to right.

Chapman - from the left side of the neck on line with the angle of the jaw carried entirely round and again infront of the neck. (left to right I supose)

Eddowes - the throat cut across. (it does not say left to right nor right to left)

Kelly - severance of the right cartoid artery.(no left to right nor right to left is mentioned)

I thought it would be rather easy to determind if the murderer was left or right handed BUT now I think it's impossible to really know !! all the best.

Niko

It all depends on whether or not he cut her neck from behind or from the front. And I think it changed. We know that for the most part, the victim's throats were cut when already on the ground. Eddowes may be the exception. Nichols I think was from behind. And by behind I mean he was kneeling above her head as opposed to at her side or whatever. The bruises on the jaw indicate that he was behind her, and he lifted her jaw to access to neck. Chapman cannot have been from behind, since she was sort of wedged int a corner, and there was room for him to get behind her. Stride I think was absolutely from behind, Eddowes may have been upright and moving, but I'm not sure. And then there's Kelly.

And I just totally thought of something. We know that arterial spurt only comes out maybe an inch or two. It not like a Vegas fountain or anything. If the marks on the wall are from arterial spurt, then the marks are too high and too far away for her to have been just lying on the bed. She had to be pretty elevated, and about the level she was found... which is clearly not a sleeping position. But the pillows weren't soaked the way you would assume if her throat had been cut on them. The corner of the mattress was soaked. But she was left on pillows.

We always assumed that he wouldn't sit in a pool of blood or anything, but blood clearly isn't a problem for him. What if he was kneeling at the headboard, and her head was in his lap? It's a pretty intimate gesture, but let's pretend. That would elevate her head and shoulder actually a little higher that the pillows would. If he cut her throat while her head was in his lap, the arterial spurt would be at the right level. And after she dies, he rolls her off his lap towards the wall so he can get up prepare and move her towards the center. Her head would be in the corner, and she would still be bleeding out. Soaking the mattress corner.

She wouldn't see the knife coming, because he is behind her. But there are some problems with this. It is a VERY intimate gesture. Which means she either knew him fairly well, or she wasn't doing it of her own free will. Which would mean that she was unconscious, already dead, comatose, drunk, something. Though I suppose she might entertain the request. There's no harm in it really. But it just seems so odd. He would be holding her head in his lap while she was dying. Watching her. And he never seemed particularly interested in the death before. And she would have bled on his pants, although if they were black wool I'm not sure it would matter. But he burned clothes, and maybe the bloodstained pants were in there.

Is this possible? Am I missing something?

[niko]

famous left hander's

Hi Erreta. I "like" your last post !! you give the impression on saying that some of the cut throat's were done from behind, this makes me sugest that the murderer was right handed, correct me if I'm wrong. How about this !! if Kelly's right cartoid artery was cut would that not mean the cut was from left to right ?

Just another of my silly comments, I've read that in old freemason rituals the direction of the cut throat was from left to right !!

I was surprised when I googled "famous lefthander's" and found out that this American president's were lefthanded.

Gerald Ford.

Ronald Reagan.

George H. W Bush.

Bill Clinton.

Barack Obama.

And yes !! Jack the ripper is on this list of famous lefthander's, all the best.

Niko

[Errata]

Hi Erreta. I "like" your last post !! you give the impression on saying that some of the cut throat's were done from behind, this makes me sugest that the murderer was right handed, correct me if I'm wrong. How about this !! if Kelly's right cartoid artery was cut would that not mean the cut was from left to right ?

Just another of my silly comments, I've read that in old freemason rituals the direction of the cut throat was from left to right !!

Niko

Well, here's the rub. We assume it was the right carotid. The coroner didn't actually say. There is a carotid on both sides of the neck, the blood was on the right wall, we assume she wasn't face down, so then it would be the right carotid. But it could have been the left. She could have been on her stomach. But considering her neck was severed down to the bone, I rather assume both carotids were cut.

There's no way to tell the directionality of the cut. Typically, the entry wound is deeper than the taper, or where the cut ends. So on a single cut, like with Stride, we can tell the direction of the cut. But the rest had their throats sawed through, and that completely obscures the entry point. If we assume that the entry was on the right, and that the severance of the right carotid was accomplished on the first cut, then that would imply a right handed man in front of her, or a left handed man behind her. And it could be an either handed man on the side of her, though left handed appears to be somewhat easier. But that assumes she was on her back. If she was on her side, then the start of the cut could be on the right or left. If she was on her side and the right carotid was severed, she would have to be rotated on her back for the blood to hit the right wall. If the left carotid was severed, the she would have to be moved onto her stomach for the blood to hit the right wall. And if she as on her stomach, then it's the reverse of if she was on her back.

But we don't actually know the entry point, we don't know her position when her throat was cut, we can't tell the directionality of the cut, And there is nothing to rule out either a right or left handed man. He could have done it with the knife in his mouth for all we know. Though I admit, a knife in the mouth lacks a certain amount of control. And then when it all boils down to it, even if we did know what hand he used, it doesn't help. He could have been a right handed man who used his left to do this one thing because it was easier. Which is something we do all the time.

European and American table manners are the perfect example. When you use a knife and fork, the fork is in your left, the knife in your right. In Europe, when you finish cutting you put the knife down, and eat with your fork in your left hand. When American's put their knife down, you switch your fork from left hand to right, and then eat. American's are much more rigid about handedness. I guess the the theory is that if we don't switch the fork to the dominant hand we will stab ourselves through the soft palate or something. I was taught European table manners, and I was made fun of. A lot. But I'm far more flexible with handedness than anyone else I know. But given that eating is a dexterity skill rather than a strength skill, people who keep the fork in their left hand make their left more dextrous. So an English Ripper can more easily use his left than an American Ripper.

[DRoy]

Jon,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes you were correct about what was on the table, not sure why I thought the intestines were there!

I get confused when people comment on left or right side of the bed. I always picture the killer on top of her and therefore the left side of the bed would be from the perception of the killer, not MJK's perception. Am I doing this wrong?

Everything you said about the ribcage sounds like a sound theory to me.

Cheers
DRoy

[Errata]

Jon,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes you were correct about what was on the table, not sure why I thought the intestines were there!

I get confused when people comment on left or right side of the bed. I always picture the killer on top of her and therefore the left side of the bed would be from the perception of the killer, not MJK's perception. Am I doing this wrong?

Everything you said about the ribcage sounds like a sound theory to me.

Cheers
DRoy

I think we are functioning from a face up Mary Kelly point of view.

[Wickerman]

Jon,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes you were correct about what was on the table, not sure why I thought the intestines were there!

I get confused when people comment on left or right side of the bed. I always picture the killer on top of her and therefore the left side of the bed would be from the perception of the killer, not MJK's perception. Am I doing this wrong?

Everything you said about the ribcage sounds like a sound theory to me.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy.
Everything about the body is viewed from the perspective of the body. The left side of the bed means, the left side from the body's point of view.
In other words, Mary's left side.
This is how any medical report should be interpreted, though I do recall one exception, I can't think who it was now.




On the subject of directionality of the cut throat..

I think most people have always assumed Mary was murdered while in the same pose as she was found, flat on her back. I find it strange that no-one appears to have questioned this.

When Dr Phillips suggested she died due to the right carotid artery being cut, he was also assuming she was flat on her back when murdered. Therefore the logical conclusion is that the blood spray on the partition came from the right side of her neck.
There is no reason to suppose this is true.

Thankfully, Dr Bond tells us clearly that the cuts across the throat betrayed no evidence of directionality, whether L-R or R-L, could not be determined.

It is my suspicion Mary was face down with her head near the top right corner of the bed. In my view Mary had been strangled just as the others appear to have been.



The fingers on one hand were clenched, and ecchymosis was seen in the skin across the neck. Although neither of these are proof of strangulation, both are consistent with this mode of attack.

In my view he then pushed her face down on the bed, climbs upon her back and pulls her head up to expose the neck, with his right hand he cuts her throat L-R, causing the spray from the left carotid artery to mark the partition.



He then rolls her over onto her back into the position in which she was found.

This makes Mary's death more consistent with the previous victims, not that it had to be done this way, but it is necessary to show that there is no reason to reject a right handed assassin for Mary Kelly's murder.

.

[John Wheat]

There is the possibility of Jack the Ripper being ambidextrus.

[Errata]

There is the possibility of Jack the Ripper being ambidextrus.

True ambidexterity is rarer than albinism. I am considered functionally ambidextrous, but I cannot do things equally well with each hand. I'm right handed, but a number of skills right handed people do with their right hand I have switched to my left. Basically I've just divvied up the labor. And I honestly think if my handwriting wasn't so terrible, I wouldn't be considered functionally ambidextrous. It just so happens that even if I were to sign my name with a pen in my teeth it wouldn't look that different than signing with my dominant hand.

[Wickerman]

I'm not sure if there's a hard and fast rule on being ambidexter. In my youth I won competitions playing darts, I'm right handed, I couldn't throw a dart, or a ball, or write, with my left hand to save my life.
I can kick a ball with either foot, I just kick harder with my right.
In cricket I can bat either handed, and catch with either hand, but only ball with my right.
I imagine most people are the same, some things you can do with a favored hand, yet other activities can be done with either hand.

.

[Errata]

I'm not sure if there's a hard and fast rule on being ambidexter. In my youth I won competitions playing darts, I'm right handed, I couldn't throw a dart, or a ball, or write, with my left hand to save my life.
I can kick a ball with either foot, I just kick harder with my right.
In cricket I can bat either handed, and catch with either hand, but only ball with my right.
I imagine most people are the same, some things you can do with a favored hand, yet other activities can be done with either hand.

.

Which is why there true ambidexterity, which means doing every task equally well with either hand, and functional ambidexterity, where traditional handedness doesn't apply. For example, a person who writes with their right hand should be using scissors with their right hand, bat righty, kick left footed, stab right handed, etc. But say with me, I write right handed, use an exacto knife right handed, use scissors with either hand, stab and slice lefty, dial a phone left handed, use a sword it either hand, hand stitch left handed, am left eye dominant, I'm all over the place. The neuropsychologists were very fond of me. Of course, I have a left handed parent and a right handed parent. So a lot of it isn't dominance, it's about who taught me what. I just started to learn tradition wood carving and wood turning, and because it's a skill I'm picking up later in life, I am truly ambidextrous when it comes to those skills.

Also, in the reports it never says it was the severance of the right carotid. It just says the carotid.

[Wickerman]

Also, in the reports it never says it was the severance of the right carotid. It just says the carotid.

Ok, you have me puzzled now, Dr Phillips identifies the right carotid. We are talking about Mary Kelly?

"...leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death,..."

.

[Errata]

Ok, you have me puzzled now, Dr Phillips identifies the right carotid. We are talking about Mary Kelly?

"...leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death,..."

.

You are correct.

My book does not say right, yet it says right on the copy here. Now I'm a little distrustful of my book.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi DRoy.

When Dr Phillips suggested she died due to the right carotid artery being cut, he was also assuming she was flat on her back when murdered. Therefore the logical conclusion is that the blood spray on the partition came from the right side of her neck.
There is no reason to suppose this is true.

There is every reason to suppose its true Jon,... the man had the qualifications to make that statement for one, and secondly, there is no indication on that bed that Mary Kelly was moved anywhere but into the middle of the bed after the throat cuts. There would have been some evidence had she been face down then turned over...there wasnt.

I know you fancy your idea a new spin on the Kelly murder, but when you follow the experts you will see that the most probable position for Mary Kelly to have had her right artery cut first then splash the wall is with Mary facing that wall, and a left handed man reaching his knife around under her chin from behind.

Killing her from behind is almost a certainty, killing her while riding her back like a horse isnt.

Cheers Jon

[Wickerman]

There is every reason to suppose its true Jon,...

Why?

the man had the qualifications to make that statement for one,

Dr Bond told us there was no indication of direction in the cuts to the throat. This means that medical opinion could not establish whether her throat was cut L-R or R-L.
Which then leaves us to realize Dr Phillips was only using the circumstance of her right side being nearest the partition, he assumed she had died on her back.

and secondly, there is no indication on that bed that Mary Kelly was moved anywhere but into the middle of the bed after the throat cuts. There would have been some evidence had she been face down then turned over...there wasnt.

Tell me what evidence you think you would see.

.

[Errata]

There is every reason to suppose its true Jon,... the man had the qualifications to make that statement for one, and secondly, there is no indication on that bed that Mary Kelly was moved anywhere but into the middle of the bed after the throat cuts. There would have been some evidence had she been face down then turned over...there wasnt.

I know you fancy your idea a new spin on the Kelly murder, but when you follow the experts you will see that the most probable position for Mary Kelly to have had her right artery cut first then splash the wall is with Mary facing that wall, and a left handed man reaching his knife around under her chin from behind.

Killing her from behind is almost a certainty, killing her while riding her back like a horse isnt.

Cheers Jon

Actually if she was facing the wall there would have been no arterial spurt on the wall since the carotid is on the side of the neck. Basically if we assume that the wall splashing is from the carotid, then we know she did have to be in two different positions. Maybe only slightly different, but different. First of all carotid arterial blood spits out maybe two feet tops. It is certainly possible to sever a carotid through the front, but blood takes the path of least resistance. If it is forced to go out the front, it doesn't come out at force. So it pretty much had to come from the side, probably from right behind the jaw joint. But the spray is higher than one would expect from a fully reclined position, and the angle at which she is found appears to put the wound at the correct height, but way too far away. But closer to the wall at that angle, which would explain the spray does not explain only a corner of the bed getting soaked through. So she had to have been shifted either on her side or front to bleed out on the corner of the mattress. Because the spray is too far from the corner to have come from her actually being in that corner. If that makes sense.