Left or right handed.

[niko]

Left to right.

Hi everyone, I have been looking at some images of 13 Millers court, in one newspaper sketch there is a woman opening the door from the outside, wich to me clearly indicates that the door opens from left to right, placeing the latch near the window, I alo believe the latch could be opened from the broken window, all the best.

Niko

[Zena]

Zena,

Good observations! Thanks for posting them. Welcome to the boards by the way

Cheers
DRoy

Thank you!

[DRoy]

Thanks everyone,

In looking at the photo of 13 Miller's Court and although the angle isn't great, it seems odd to have the door swing to the left (from outside the room) since it looks like a small wall. The door would bang against the window every time it was opened.

I think the door must have swung from left to right but like Errata said, could have hit either table. Most likely though, the bedside table IMHO.

Regarding MJK1, was there enough room to set up the camera in the room? If so, they must have moved the table under the window. I think this again is proof furniture was moved around which again means at least in MJK's murder it isn't easy to plead whether the killer was left or right handed.

DRoy

[DRoy]

Zena,

Good observations! Thanks for posting them. Welcome to the boards by the way

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Did all doors really open the same way with knobs on the same side? My house has knobs on both sides and open both ways.

Well I'm glad you asked this type of question because when I was a lad I do remember noticing what I though was an oddity in the houses we and our friends lived in.
I noticed that even when the upstairs rooms were the same size & orientation as the downstairs rooms, the doors often opened in a different direction.
It was years before an old man who had been in the building trade explained to me why that was.

The reason, Victorian Sensibilities.

Apparently, from the Victorian age onwards, a door to a bedroom was designed to have the lock on the side closest to the nearest wall.

Assume that the bedroom door was not exactly central on the wall, it was lets say nearest the left side wall of the room. Due to Victorian sensibilities, it was deemed propper to have the door largely obscure the internal view of the bedroom as it is opened, the bedroom being a private place.
The door handle/lock was then mounted on the left side closest to the nearest wall, just like Kelly's room, which was essentially in modern terminology, a Bedsit.

However, downstairs rooms, kitchens, parlours, etc, the opposite view was taken. When a servant or guest enters your entertaining room the door should open with the hinge side closest to the nearest wall so as to fully expose the view of the room on opening.
Does that make sense?

In looking at MJK1, it seems the photo was taken from the left window, not the right. I didn't think there was broken windows on the left so how was the photo taken? Was the window opened?

The camera man was let into the room before the post-mortem began.

.

[DRoy]

Thanks Michael,

I did a bunch of research on the door latches as well and I remember finding way smaller ones. Do those look the type of handles and latches that would be in 13 Miller's Court? Not trying to be argumentative! I'd just assume they would be of the smaller and cheaper variety.

Did all doors really open the same way with knobs on the same side? My house has knobs on both sides and open both ways.

I'd still like to hear opinions about the windows able to open. Can anyone confirm they could open? If they could, why reach through broken glass? Can anyone have fit through the window if they could open?

In looking at MJK1, it seems the photo was taken from the left window, not the right. I didn't think there was broken windows on the left so how was the photo taken? Was the window opened?

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Hi Michael.

Did you ever get the chance to discuss the lock found by Bob Hinton?

If you care to scroll down to the bottom of this archived thread...

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6718.html

Read the post below the pics to describe what each pic is showing.

.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To answer both you Jon and Zena and DRoy, the latch assemblies used at that time....and it was probably an earlier example on that particular door, had a long arm that was used to set the latch in its cradle. Ill post a few pictures I found a minute ago. In a conversation with Sam Flynn on here quite a few years back....maybe 7 or 8, we discussed this very thing and some measurements were estimated that make it quite possible for someone to reach through the lower right broken pane and access the latch on the back of the door. It was less than 2 ft from that window closest to the front corner to the door side wall. The latches would have been mounted so that the latch was almost accessible from the middle of the door, not on the left side, as you look at the door from inside the room.

To your point Jon, I was under the same impression as you because we never got into a debate about which way the door swung before. I assumed everyone had that opinion. Live and learn.

Here are 3 latches which Im sure were not the type of the one found on that door, but they do give you some idea of the sizing.

[Wickerman]

Seems you didnt trust the sketch much Jon, it shows that the knob on the outside was on the right hand side of the door, thats because, as I said, it swung inward to the left. ...

Hello Michael.

The swing of the door has never puzzled me, I always thought everyone saw the door opening in the same direction, it was a surprise to me to see you thought differently.

One question, how do you envisage anyone opening the spring-lock by reaching through a broken window if, the door handle/lock was on the right side of the door?

[Errata]

Door knobs are on the left when we face the door in question. Which in this case puts the knob near the outside wall by the windows. And as it is an external door, it should push in and not swing out. Which definitively means that it could have run into either table. It could have clipped the window side table if it was pulled towards the door, or it could have slammed into the bedside table if it was pulled out enough to be in the path of the swing. Both tables could have started out in completely different locations, or both tables could have been pulled only slightly out of place.

There were exactly three people besides the killer in a position to know. Her ex boyfriend, who had lived there and presumably would mention if something wasn't where he last saw it, her neighbor lady who had been in the apartment the evening of the murder and would have probably remembered if she had to shove the door against something to get it open or at least have known where the tables were, and Mary herself. I think if the cops wondered whether or not the tables were moved, they would have asked. And that answer would theoretically come out at the inquest, since it would answer some very pertinent questions about how he got in, did he bar the door to prevent intrusion, and was the scene disturbed before they got there? Now I recall her ex saying something about things maybe having bee moved around, but I can't for the life of me remember where I read that, so I could be making it up. But the answer to this one is not in the physics. The physics say either is possible.

But doorknobs have been on the left for a very long time. Since the common use of keys. The assumption is that you need your right hand to manipulate the key.

[Wickerman]

And in her right hand.......

[Zena]

Comparing the drawing to the photo, the illustrator has both of the windows as the same type, the same size, and on the same level, which is clearly not the case in the actual photo of Miller's Court. He also put the drainage pipe on the wall with the door instead of the wall with the windows as it is in the photo.

IMO, he probably didn't get door correct either.

(First time attaching graphics, so I hope this comes out OK! )

Photo of Miller's Court found here:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=2

[DRoy]

Michael,

I'm sorry you feel you have to explain known things. I honestly was asking for confirmation of the source so I could read it myself. I do appreciate you taking the time to show and explain. Obviously, i'm not the only one that thought differently than you so thanks for sharing.

Can you please confirm whether that drawing is the only source for the door opening right to left?

Can I please also ask you what your opinion is on my comment about the window lifting up being easier than putting their arms through broken glass?

Thank you
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Exactly, the doorknob was nearest the corner of the building, the door swung to the right.

.

Seems you didnt trust the sketch much Jon, it shows that the knob on the outside was on the right hand side of the door, thats because, as I said, it swung inward to the left. You do of course realize that the knob is on the side of the door that detaches when the catch is withdrawn.

So if it detaches on the right hand side and is hinged to swing inward...voila.

Best regards

[Wickerman]

Wouldn't the door have to open from left to right, with the doorknob on the side closest to the window? Otherwise, no one would be able to reach the latch through the broken pane.

Exactly, the doorknob was nearest the corner of the building, the door swung to the right.

.