Left or right handed.

[DRoy]

Michael,

I've said it about 10 times now, there is no proof "a" chair was moved at all. No proof anything was moved. Yet we can assume some was. You chosing "a" chair is an opinion only.

By room being locked, yes we can assume they meant whatever could be locked and unlocked and at this point I think we only have the door.

You call those things a red herring but I respectfully disagree. I think everything is a possible clue until such time it is proven to not be. The point of cold case detectives and even amature detectives like us can help unearth valuable information a/o oversights. If I didn't believe that then I wouldn't be on this site.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Errata,

I fake murdered my fiance a few times

Assuming just during Ripper re-enactments right?

There is no need to quote the rest of your post. As always, your posts are fantastic. Thanks for sharing your opinions!

DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think this business about whether the killer moved the furniture around is a red herring actually, there is no evidence that we know of to suggest that it happened, only the fact that "a" table.. close to the door... was left where it impeded entry.

Here is what we do know...the killer left the room locked, which means he either set the latch off from the inside of the room...leaving him only the windows to get out, or he closed the door as he left, having set the latch to lock behind him. Ive stated that the windows were found locked and I may be incorrect about that...Im searching for a specific reference, but I will say now that if the windows were not locked, then why would McCarthy volunteer to ruin his own door to get into the room? Surely it would have cheaper for him to allow the Police to slide a window up and get in that way...the window frame closest to the front corner of the room looks low enough to allow someone to step into the room through there...if the window could be raised that is.

The conundrum the police faced when entering the room was the fact that "the room was locked", although it doesnt seem that it was specified that both the door and windows were locked, the fact that there are quotes that suggest "the room" was locked leaves the implication that there was no way to get into the room without force, or the key.

Cheers all

[Errata]

Errata,

But was he left or right handed?

If he did all his work from the left side, wouldn't that make it difficult to put her insides on the table from there? If on the right side he could easily place everything on the table. Or did he move around all over the place?

How could we determine whether left or right handed?

Cheers
DRoy

The table is on the left of the bed, if the agreed upon perspective is that of someone lying on the bed. So he sat on her left, the table was on her left. She was on his left, the table was on his right.

I don't think we can determine handedness on this murder. I fake murdered my fiance a few times, and I can do it with either hand. Michael and I have some disagreements about this, but I feel confident he will tell you his view so I'll just tell you mine. I think he cut with both hands at various points. We all switch up hands as the need arises, and we do it often. He may have cut the top connection of an organ with one hand, and the bottom connection with the other. I think the wound that would best tell us handedness would be the excised breasts. The angle needed to remove them is so extreme that he would have to use his dominant hand. And the angle of the blade as he made those cuts would tell us if he used his left hand or his right. Of course, that information was not included in the report, and we have no way of getting it now. A person can stab straight down with equal effectiveness with either hand. Slicing is what takes more control.

The throat cut is messy. Almost all of the throat cuts were. And it was not a single cut. He sawed on her throat to get down to the vertebrae. That would completely obliterate any signs of handedness. If we could get directionality on the thigh wounds, they might show us handedness. We don't have that either. So all we have is her theoretical position before death, as told by the blood evidence.

So the theory is that her throat was cut when she was lying on the right side of the bed. I have no intrinsic problem with that idea.The sheets are pretty clean, actually, which I find odd. And the pool of blood is coming out from under her bed right under where the organs between her feet are placed. Of course the sheets and mattress don't appear to be soaked at that point, so that's odd as well. So i think she is on her back, with the head at the right top corner of the bed more or less. I think he essentially got on top of her and cut her throat. Which certainly would explain the blood spatter on the wall. The difficult part to explain is the soaked corner, because after a few second the arterial spurts stop, and then it's just normal bleeding, which would soak the bed under her head, not the corner. I'm not entirely sure he didn't roll her on her side and start sawing through her neck. But he could have used either hand to cut her throat. I don't see it as revealing as far as handedness goes.

I don't think we can know. And I'm not entirely sure it matters. A right handed man could have cut her throat with his left hand, and it certainly wouldn't have made more of a mess than sawing through the throat. Most right handed people may not be able to write legibly with their left hand, but they can successfully bring a knife to a throat and cut through it. It's not really a finesse move. So to answer your question, the way we find out if he was right or left handed is to to somehow get a report and maybe some pictures of the wounds on her chest left from excising the breasts. Barring that, I don't think we ever know.

[DRoy]

Jon,

It appears only the surface flesh was on the table, no organs, no innerds.

This flesh could have been lifted off the bed and dropped on the table all at once, as opposed to placing the flesh there piece by piece as he worked.

The only left-handed operation I can see is the removal of the heart through the Pericardium, but that in itself does not make him left-handed.

I was under the impression that at least her intestines were also placed on the table.

Out of curiosity, how do you see the heart being removed from the pericardium as being a left handed operation?

Thanks Jon
DRoy

[Wickerman]

I think if the murderer was right handed we would find ourselfs with a completely different sycnario, let's say the murderer grabed her hair, pulled her forward, got behind her and with his knife in his right hand cut her throat

If Mary was laid face down he could still attack her from behind. She was found face up in the middle of the bed, but all that means is that the killer rolled her over because the bed sheets in the top right corner were saturated with blood so she was obviously not killed in the position she was found.

(is there any evidence if the angle of the cut was from left to right or right to left)

Not according to Dr. Bond, there were several cuts across the throat but the direction of these cuts could not be determined.
There were also several splashes of blood on the wall, not just one, so there is another issue to address.

.

[Wickerman]

Errata,

But was he left or right handed?

If he did all his work from the left side, wouldn't that make it difficult to put her insides on the table from there? If on the right side he could easily place everything on the table. Or did he move around all over the place?

How could we determine whether left or right handed?

Cheers
DRoy

It appears only the surface flesh was on the table, no organs, no innerds.

This flesh could have been lifted off the bed and dropped on the table all at once, as opposed to placing the flesh there piece by piece as he worked.

The only left-handed operation I can see is the removal of the heart through the Pericardium, but that in itself does not make him left-handed.

.

[DRoy]

Errata,

But was he left or right handed?

If he did all his work from the left side, wouldn't that make it difficult to put her insides on the table from there? If on the right side he could easily place everything on the table. Or did he move around all over the place?

How could we determine whether left or right handed?

Cheers
DRoy

[Errata]

So lets just use what is indisputable. The dissection of Mary Kelly appears to have been done from the left hand side of the bed. There is bedding stuffed down between the partition wall and the bed and there is very little space as it is. It also would make no sense to imagine that the killer moved the bed away from the wall so he could use the right hand side, not with the entrails placed on the nighttable on the left side. It also makes little sense to imagine he acted as if oblivious to the fact that he was inside a house with other tenants above him. The noise factor would be considered.

The physical act of slicing parts and placing them behind himself, to his right, as I stated before, seems to me to suggest that a left handed man would have far less awkward pivots to make. Whether he keeps the knife in his hands and grabs the severed parts with both hands, or whether he slices with one while holding the skin somewhat taut until its needed to remove the materials, I really feel that a reconstruction of the probable sequencing would reveal that a left handed man is indicated.

If he stood where I suggest and was right handed, I could see him first lifting and placing the nighttable on his left..nearer to the fireplace. Not a huge noise risk in that action. And easier to cut and place for him.

But theres no evidence that either table was not in its same position, roughly, as they would have been before that night.

Best regards

Personally I agree he was on the left, but I see him seated on her left side, facing the headboard and cutting, so there is no pivot. Just a potentially awkward hand change with the knife, but if you've ever seen Americans eat you know it's not that big a deal. Nor am I especially convinced he cut the organs out one by one. It makes more sense to sever all the connections of the top layer, take out those organs, next layer, and then the next. So essentially you cut the liver, spleen, uterus etc. because they are all exposed at the same depth. But that takes an orderly mind I am not entirely certain that killer possessed.

[DRoy]

Michael,

Forgive me for attempting to re-route the discussions back to the original question here, weve been as tangential long enough I think.

Good point Michael! I'm with you so far...

So lets just use what is indisputable. The dissection of Mary Kelly appears to have been done from the left hand side of the bed. There is bedding stuffed down between the partition wall and the bed and there is very little space as it is.

Oh oh! Indisputable? Michael, are you basing this on MJK1 a/o MJK2? If so, we're going to have to start all over again whether furniture was moved or not, and if so, whether the photo(s) was/were taken before or after being moved.

In order to stay on topic, I just want to be sure...

Cheers
DRoy

[niko]

going back !!

Hi everyone !! I was just thinking about if the murderer was left or right handed,to me from the evidence available e.g the direction in wich the blood squrt went to the partition panel and her probably lying on her right, that the murderer was left handed. I think if the murderer was right handed we would find ourselfs with a completely different sycnario, let's say the murderer grabed her hair, pulled her forward, got behind her and with his knife in his right hand cut her throat (is there any evidence if the angle of the cut was from left to right or right to left) causing the blood squrt to go forward onto the bed !! if he was right handed and cut her from behind the direction of the cut would be left to right and if he was left handed and cut her from the front the direction of the cut would go from right to left, Iam judging in the way a knife is usually used !! I still opt that he was left handed, all the best.

Niko

[Michael W Richards]

Forgive me for attempting to re-route the discussions back to the original question here, weve been as tangential long enough I think.

It would seem that there are a few different opinions on how this murder began and was conducted, and that some issues regarding the preferred hand of the criminal might not be satisfactorily clear as a result.

So lets just use what is indisputable. The dissection of Mary Kelly appears to have been done from the left hand side of the bed. There is bedding stuffed down between the partition wall and the bed and there is very little space as it is. It also would make no sense to imagine that the killer moved the bed away from the wall so he could use the right hand side, not with the entrails placed on the nighttable on the left side. It also makes little sense to imagine he acted as if oblivious to the fact that he was inside a house with other tenants above him. The noise factor would be considered.

The physical act of slicing parts and placing them behind himself, to his right, as I stated before, seems to me to suggest that a left handed man would have far less awkward pivots to make. Whether he keeps the knife in his hands and grabs the severed parts with both hands, or whether he slices with one while holding the skin somewhat taut until its needed to remove the materials, I really feel that a reconstruction of the probable sequencing would reveal that a left handed man is indicated.

If he stood where I suggest and was right handed, I could see him first lifting and placing the nighttable on his left..nearer to the fireplace. Not a huge noise risk in that action. And easier to cut and place for him.

But theres no evidence that either table was not in its same position, roughly, as they would have been before that night.

Best regards

[niko]

Why doubt ?

Hi everyone !! I think the sketch I posted was from a newspaper at the time of the murders, so if an artist was sent to do a sketch of 13 millers court he would draw as much detail and corectly as possible, I supose the artist was a professiional, so I doubt if the door knob wa on the right he would draw it on the left. I agree that the majority of front door's the lock is on the left, although my grandmother's house front door the lock is on the right, but I still think that the sketch is correct and the lock is on the left, all the best.

Niko

[Errata]

Did all doors really open the same way with knobs on the same side? My house has knobs on both sides and open both ways.


Cheers
DRoy

Exterior doors have the knob on the left and push inward. So as not to accidentally whack a pedestrian on your way out of the house I imagine. Inside the house knobs are on the left except in case when opening a door in that direction would either be impossible or block another doorway. For example my upstairs hall closet has a knob on the right, because on the left it would block the bedroom if opened. Which doesn't matter unless someone decides to shut the door and they can't see you are on the other side of it. The downstairs hall closet knob is on the left. In older houses with somewhat wonky layouts, interior doors with the knob on the right can be more common. But the exterior door knob is on the left.

[DRoy]

Niko,

That photo has already been shown by Wickerman to support the door opening from left to right. As much as I tend to agree with you and him, it's difficult to accept a drawing as evidence.

Regarding the windows being able to open, i've only so far been able to find discussions from people like us on the boards who've speculated they could be opened. Some feel the photo outside 13 Miller's Court shows "gaps" in the window which could indicate they could open.

If you're aware of evidence other than an artist's drawing or our opinions i'd appreciate it if you'd post it.

Cheers
DRoy