Left or right handed.

[Michael W Richards]

Easy enough to pull Kelly up by the hair with the left hand and slice with the right. There's no need to worry about leverage there. Any number of arguments might be made to go for either right or left handedness. To go with left simply to make Kelly's murderer different than the one who did the others, seems to be the purpose here. Not with you, but as a general idea. It absolutely isn't something that can be proved and so, should be excluded from arguments.

You seem to picture Kelly lying on her right side completely and unable to raise her head or to have her head raised enough so that someone could get a knife hand around her from behind. As I've shown, this is easily dealt with and she may have been sitting up for all we know.

Cheers,

Mike

I believe that all the evidence there once assessed left the impression with investigators that she was alligned on the right hand side of the bed, facing the partition wall, when attacked. The blood on the partition wall was believed to be arterial spray, not collateral blood splatter. Its believed the killer moved her onto her back in the middle of the bed to begin the mutilations. If she was lying on her right side, facing away from her killer...as was deduced from the crime scene evidence, it indicates that its likely the killer was expected to get into bed with her on the left side. There is no room between the bed and the wall on the right side anyway, There is a lot of blood on the upper right hand side of the bed, consistent with the arterial cut being made while her head was at that upper right hand point.

That said, there is little if any evidence that the killer lifted her head by her hair to cut her, and there is little that might support a belief that he was in bed with her with his right hand around her neck or chest, from under her. Even if that were seen in the evidence, its unlikely he would have had the knife already in his right hand with his arm around her to draw back across the neck. We also have defensive wounds on her hands and arms. She likely turned and flailed at the attacker when she realized what had happened.

All in all, a left handed killer is indicated here. And only in this Canonical murder.

[Robert St Devil]

All in all, a left handed killer is indicated here. And only in this Canonical murder.

well actually MWR…

in the murder of Catherine Eddowes, the post mortem reports:

We examined the abdomen. The front walls were laid open from the breast bones to the pubes. The cut commenced opposite the enciform cartilage. The incision went upwards, not penetrating the skin that was over the sternum. It then divided the enciform cartilage. The knife must have cut obliquely at the expense of that cartilage.

… which means, the cut was from right to left, from her pubic region up to her rib-cage, a cut made in a manner which might be more consistent with a murderer who could ALSO use his left-hand. He splits her enciform cartilage (xiphoid process) by his knife striking against it. [* it’s my belief that he cut through her colon at this point, her abdomen being thin, his blade NOT having to penetrate through abdominal fat like it did with Annie Chapman]

Now, based on other cuts made to her body, one could presume Jack the Ripper was primarily situated on her right-hand side throughout his frenzy… plus it would be the most advantageous position IF we take into consideration that this positioning would afford him the best lighting from within the Square.

However, i concede that noone knows IF he remained stationary throughout the murder; for all anyone knows, Jack the Ripper could have moved about the body while he made his cuts into her body.

*****

As an aside, Robert Liston (1794-1847) was a British surgeon described as "the fastest knife in the West End. He could amputate a leg in 2 & 1/2 minutes." He promoted the practice of fast surgeries as a means of alleviating excess pain to the patient. In his book Practical Surgery, Dr. Liston wrote that “a surgeon who could use each hand hand equally well… possesses great advantages.”

Without dismissing the possibility that Jack the Ripper MAY HAVE been a medical-man who MAY HAVE subscribed to Liston’s practice of ambidexterity…

[Geddy2112]

Looking at the his picture Crossmere was right handed, so erm JtR was right handed and the torso murderer..

[Michael W Richards]

well actually MWR…

in the murder of Catherine Eddowes, the post mortem reports:

We examined the abdomen. The front walls were laid open from the breast bones to the pubes. The cut commenced opposite the enciform cartilage. The incision went upwards, not penetrating the skin that was over the sternum. It then divided the enciform cartilage. The knife must have cut obliquely at the expense of that cartilage.

… which means, the cut was from right to left, from her pubic region up to her rib-cage, a cut made in a manner which might be more consistent with a murderer who could ALSO use his left-hand. He splits her enciform cartilage (xiphoid process) by his knife striking against it. [* it’s my belief that he cut through her colon at this point, her abdomen being thin, his blade NOT having to penetrate through abdominal fat like it did with Annie Chapman]

Now, based on other cuts made to her body, one could presume Jack the Ripper was primarily situated on her right-hand side throughout his frenzy… plus it would be the most advantageous position IF we take into consideration that this positioning would afford him the best lighting from within the Square.

However, i concede that noone knows IF he remained stationary throughout the murder; for all anyone knows, Jack the Ripper could have moved about the body while he made his cuts into her body.

*****

As an aside, Robert Liston (1794-1847) was a British surgeon described as "the fastest knife in the West End. He could amputate a leg in 2 & 1/2 minutes." He promoted the practice of fast surgeries as a means of alleviating excess pain to the patient. In his book Practical Surgery, Dr. Liston wrote that “a surgeon who could use each hand hand equally well… possesses great advantages.”

Without dismissing the possibility that Jack the Ripper MAY HAVE been a medical-man who MAY HAVE subscribed to Liston’s practice of ambidexterity…

Robert,

Are you aware of the statistical chances of someone being truly ambidextrous? 1% of any given population. I would also remind you that when the cutting is being done in Millers Court, it is being done from the left side of the bed. How convenient would it be for a right handed killer to be on the victims left side while cutting into the inside of her left thigh,...there are several issues facing a right handed killer in that room, under those circumstances. Bed pushed up to the wall for one. One that just came to mind is that if he is using his left hand, the angle of his body might allow for him to see a bit of the window or door, a right handed killer would have his back to the door the whole time.

[A P Tomlinson]

I think he was right handed.
I think the throats were cut from behind, allowing him to keep the chin down while he lowered them to the floor preventing the blood from spraying and the fact that both Nichols and Chapman were laid down with their left side towards a wall or fence made ripping "Upwards" the more likely option for a lefty, while inserting the blade higher up the torso and drawinng it downward is the optimum position for a rightykneeling on the right sideof the body. I don't think he cut upwards.

I've struggled to find a definitive position for Eddowes' body position in Mitre Square as there seems to be some discrepancies and I find it hard to poinpoint exactly what position she was in. I'd appreciate it if someone can point to me to a definitive description. As it stands the best I can come up with is that her head was toward the corner and her feet towards the square... (Mitre Square, and the "double event" in general are not my strong suit...)

In my opinion Stride wasn't intended to be one of his "subjects" at the time he killed her. Even for the risk-taker he clearly was, that spot was ludicrously dangerous to attempt his work. I don't believe he was interrupted by the horse, but rather by Stride herself. I think he tried to lure her away, she became either angry or suspicious, maybe said "You are that man who is killing all those women!" and he killed her to shut her up, and legged it.

Of course Kelly had her right side toward the wall, but that was an entirely different set of circumstances in terms of what freedoms he had to go about his business...

[c.d.]

In my opinion Stride wasn't intended to be one of his "subjects" at the time he killed her. Even for the risk-taker he clearly was, that spot was ludicrously dangerous to attempt his work. I don't believe he was interrupted by the horse, but rather by Stride herself. I think he tried to lure her away, she became either angry or suspicious, maybe said "You are that man who is killing all those women!" and he killed her to shut her up, and legged it.

Hello A.P.,

It sounds like you believe that B.S. man was her killer. Is that correct? If so, why do you think he felt it was necessary to kill her? To shut her up about what? Had he attempted to kill her at that point or just lure her away? Plus, if he was the B.S. man he had been seen by Schwartz and Pipe Man. So why kill her?

c.d.

[Robert St Devil]

Robert,

Are you aware of the statistical chances of someone being truly ambidextrous? 1% of any given population.

How do THOSE statistics stack up against being a organ-harvesting serial killer? Hi Michael. In truth, i don’t oppose your sequencing ALTHOUGH i don’t instantly dismiss ambidexterity from the equation simply because it’s a statistical anomaly AFTER ALL what is this case other than just that, a statistical anomaly ALBEIT a historically phenomenal one.

The bruising on Polly Nicholls’ face supports the assertion that he was right-handed. The cut along Eddowes’ abdomen (which i mentioned a message ago) could support the assertion that he used his left-hand. And the murder of Mary Kelly might support the notion that Jack the Ripper used both hands since (as you mentioned) some of the cuts to her lower extremities would have been performed easier by the left-hand WHILE the cuts to her face and torso may have been more easily performed by the right hand {shrugs}

i will add THIS bit to your reasonings, MWR… i agree that Jack the Ripper was standing along the left-side of the bed WITH THAT BEING SAID it was probably more likely that he reached inside of her rib-cage with HIS left-hand to tear away her lungs and heart and…. hmm, no wait, pause everything…

…idea brewing up in the cabeza…

Mary Kelly’s post mortem said that her intercostals between her ribs were cut-through & the contents of the thorax were visible through the openings (much like looking through a window) SO MAYBE he tore as much of her lung away so that he could grab ahold of her heart (all with his left hand) AND THEN with his right hand he poked his knife into the openings in order to cut the heart away from its’ pulmonary arteries and veins.

[Robert St Devil]

I think he was right handed.
I think the throats were cut from behind, allowing him to keep the chin down while he lowered them to the floor...

With the possible exception of Mary Kelly, i’m OF THE OPINION that Jack the Ripper strangled these women before cutting their throats… for various reasons. One of these reasons shares the Nicholls and Stride scenes of the crimes in common. In both cases their bonnets were found aside their body MY INTERPRETATION is that he removed the bonnets after he had incapacitated these women and lowered their bodies to the ground. MY SUSPICION is that the strings of the bonnet tied under the chin AND THAT they impeded his need to cut her throat.

[Michael W Richards]

How do THOSE statistics stack up against being a organ-harvesting serial killer? Hi Michael. In truth, i don’t oppose your sequencing ALTHOUGH i don’t instantly dismiss ambidexterity from the equation simply because it’s a statistical anomaly AFTER ALL what is this case other than just that, a statistical anomaly ALBEIT a historically phenomenal one.

The bruising on Polly Nicholls’ face supports the assertion that he was right-handed. The cut along Eddowes’ abdomen (which i mentioned a message ago) could support the assertion that he used his left-hand. And the murder of Mary Kelly might support the notion that Jack the Ripper used both hands since (as you mentioned) some of the cuts to her lower extremities would have been performed easier by the left-hand WHILE the cuts to her face and torso may have been more easily performed by the right hand {shrugs}

i will add THIS bit to your reasonings, MWR… i agree that Jack the Ripper was standing along the left-side of the bed WITH THAT BEING SAID it was probably more likely that he reached inside of her rib-cage with HIS left-hand to tear away her lungs and heart and…. hmm, no wait, pause everything…

…idea brewing up in the cabeza…

Mary Kelly’s post mortem said that her intercostals between her ribs were cut-through & the contents of the thorax were visible through the openings (much like looking through a window) SO MAYBE he tore as much of her lung away so that he could grab ahold of her heart (all with his left hand) AND THEN with his right hand he poked his knife into the openings in order to cut the heart away from its’ pulmonary arteries and veins.

On the Eddowes case his cutting position is critical to determining which hand is more probable, and I do get how the perspective on Mary Kellys mutilations does allow for a right hand, or both, to have been used. Now, think about the right leg. And the viscera under her head. And on the night table. These placements and actions along with the beds orientation suggest that a left handed killer would not have been disadvantaged by the right hand side of the bed abutting the partition wall. And from his position on the left hand side of the bed, cutting things with his left and removing them with his right seems to me anyway, the most probable.

[A P Tomlinson]

With the possible exception of Mary Kelly, i’m OF THE OPINION that Jack the Ripper strangled these women before cutting their throats… for various reasons. One of these reasons shares the Nicholls and Stride scenes of the crimes in common. In both cases their bonnets were found aside their body MY INTERPRETATION is that he removed the bonnets after he had incapacitated these women and lowered their bodies to the ground. MY SUSPICION is that the strings of the bonnet tied under the chin AND THAT they impeded his need to cut her throat.

I agree with the theory that he choked/strangled/suffocated them, but I'm not sure he strangled them to death, merely unconsciousness. It's far quicker to choke them out, then as he's lowering them,to the ground from behind - draw the bled across the throat from left to right, you get a far stronger, more controlled pull with a knife from that position than cutting the throat from the front.

[A P Tomlinson]

On the Eddowes case his cutting position is critical to determining which hand is more probable, and I do get how the perspective on Mary Kellys mutilations does allow for a right hand, or both, to have been used. Now, think about the right leg. And the viscera under her head. And on the night table. These placements and actions along with the beds orientation suggest that a left handed killer would not have been disadvantaged by the right hand side of the bed abutting the partition wall. And from his position on the left hand side of the bed, cutting things with his left and removing them with his right seems to me anyway, the most probable.

How do you think the Chapman situation would have played out with a lefty? Her left side against the fence and the insides pulled out to roughly to the left of the position he would have been kneeling to face the body?

[A P Tomlinson]

In my opinion Stride wasn't intended to be one of his "subjects" at the time he killed her. Even for the risk-taker he clearly was, that spot was ludicrously dangerous to attempt his work. I don't believe he was interrupted by the horse, but rather by Stride herself. I think he tried to lure her away, she became either angry or suspicious, maybe said "You are that man who is killing all those women!" and he killed her to shut her up, and legged it.

Hello A.P.,

It sounds like you believe that B.S. man was her killer. Is that correct? If so, why do you think he felt it was necessary to kill her? To shut her up about what? Had he attempted to kill her at that point or just lure her away? Plus, if he was the B.S. man he had been seen by Schwartz and Pipe Man. So why kill her?

c.d.

I think there's a good chance it was him.
The scenario I imagine would be something along the lines of him attempting the approach he had used on the others to gain her attention and trust. She, in turn, wasn't interested either in him, (and wanted rid of him,) or going somewhere else and tried to seal the deal down Dutfields Yard. This was a place that was too dangerous for him to do his work, with all the people just inside the club. If not just the location and lack of egress, the noise from the club would have covered approaching footsteps. It's a terrible choice of location for even a risk taker like him.

There followed an argument, which escalated quickly and became violent.
Maybe he threatened her with the knife, or she caught a glimpseof the metal of the blade, or simply wanted to get rid of himt and started to become hysterical and call out. A short struggle begins, he over powers her covering her mouth to prevent further (louder) screaming and drags her into the darkness of the yard, cuts her throat dumps the body in the shadows, and makes a swift exit.

As to being seen by Pipeman and Schwartz, it would all depend on how many of them knew him. If Liz knew him, and made threats like "I'll have the law on you John Smith!" or raised the suggestion that he was the man who had "killed these four women" he would have little choice other than to silence her. But that situation is not one that lends itself to him being able to then carry out his methods and achieve his goal. There's also the fact that, regardless of acquaintance, she would have had a far better chance to get a GOOD look at him, sufficient to identify him.

I still think there is a distinct possibility that "Lipski" was "Lizzie!" and if it was, then the first-name-terms relationship would be ample reason to silence her.
And as far as pipeman goes, the simplest explanation is that he simply started walking once his pipe was lit, rather than being under some coded direction from an antisemitic murderer.

[Robert St Devil]

…And from his position on the left hand side of the bed, cutting things with his left and removing them with his right seems to me anyway, the most probable.

…I agree with the theory that he choked/strangled/suffocated them, but I'm not sure he strangled them to death, merely unconsciousness.

I’d also accept /throttled/stifled/garotted/suffocated (maybe)/asphyxiated/{pondering} uh, muffled

Hello A P and MWR. Hello Dave Not Debs. Hello Debs Not Dave. Hello et al.

1. A P beat me to it, Michael… with his post questioning Jack the Ripper’s obvious positioning alongside Annie Chapman’s right-hand side versus his obvious positioning alongside Mary Jane Kelly’s left-hand side. I thought that my rationale was sound, of Jack the Ripper pulling Mary Kelly’s heart out from her thorax with his left hand WHILE he cut the attaching arterials with his right hand BUT NOW i am applying the same formulaic way of thinking to the removal of the uterus (hmm, well, attempting to apply). In both instances - Annie Chapman & Mary Kelly - the [uteruses|uteri] were removed, pointing out once again that Saucy Jacky was on opposing sides of each woman when he harvested this organ. The extent of my research on the anatomical location and depth of the uterus within the pelvis, i admit, has been limited to You Tube videos STILL the question lingers: would particular handedness have played a part in removing the uterus?
2. MWR, I have returned to the photos of the scene of the crime for Mary Kelly AND IF i could ever conclusively determine if that is her pelvis in the photograph THEN i might be able to determine that those white scratch marks (on the pelvis?) were probably made by the point of the knife AND THEN i might start to sway my opinion which hand he employed ALL WHILE realizing i have burned too much grey matter thinking about the subject FOR NOW i am leaving the subject as TBD [* It’s the photo with the doorknob in the upper left corner btw]
3. A P, There was a idiocy that schoolchildren performed on each other in my day of the 80s FROM THE LOOKS OF THINGS it is still going on to this day. All you need to do is simply google the Pass Out Challenge and you’ll find a variety of the idiocy in question. One student pushes up against the chest of another student (who is standing against a wall btw) until that 2nd student passes out, if not immediately than momentarily. I share this tale of idiocy because there is an aspect of Elizabeth Stride’s post mortem which baffles me THAT BEING the markings over the shoulder and under the collarbone NOW my presumption would be a person would wrap their murderous hands around another person’s neck IF they were trying to strangle them to death, i mean, have you ever heard of an instance of someone being throttled by way of having their shoulders pressed upon? [Even Annie Chapman had the appearance of thumbprints around her shoulder area.] Elizabeth Stride was found immediately beyond the [arc of the] swing of the gate WHICH would have been the best place to push her up against the wall IF Jack the Ripper was attempting this pressing method of rendering her unconscious, which leads me into…
4. My agreement with you A P. I believe that each of the victims was rendered unconscious to varying degrees of ‘nearness to death’. In the cases of Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly, the splatter of blood on the gate and wall respectively indicates that they had more pulse within them. In the cases of Polly Nicholls and Elizabeth Stride, the lack of splatterings indicates that their pulses were faint to nonexistent. Elizabeth Stride’s heart was filled with clot which may be further indication that her heart had cessated before he cut her throat. Pardon the counterpoint A P i do believe that the women were lying on the ground BEFORE he drew his knife across each of their throats. With Polly Nicholls and Elizabeth Stride, he first took off their bonnet. With Annie Chapman, the blood on the paling lined up with the cut to her throat. With Mary Kelly, he let her first bleed out against the far side of the bed, against the wall. For me AT LEAST i’m having a difficult time imagining this killer cutting the throat in a hasty attack or while the woman was falling to the ground or… well, any of the other popular beliefs.

All misspellings my own.

[Michael W Richards]

How do you think the Chapman situation would have played out with a lefty? Her left side against the fence and the insides pulled out to roughly to the left of the position he would have been kneeling to face the body?

I think he moved Annie a bit after he began strangling her and she bumped the fence Cadosche was on the other side of. By the by, I agree with the idea that Jack The Ripper murders began with asphyxiation/strangulation in some form. To the point of unconsciousness I wound imagine. The quiet reported by witnesses is really the determining factor there, they were cut off before they could utter a peep. Blitzkreig, a very effective way to catch your opponent off guard.

The point on Annies killer is that he moved the body so he had the angle and access he desired. In reality he might have had some room on either side of her to choose as the position of the knife attack, Annies left side was not against the fence. Mary was flipped back onto the middle of the bed, having been initially attacked while facing the partition wall, on her right side. We have the bedding stuffed down that side of the bed as well, which would prevent using that side to approach his target. We cant know for sure if Mary had thrown the blanket off due to the heat of the fire and the booze in her body, but I suspect it was there purposefully. One, to ensure the bed moved about less...squeaky furniture and floors dont ya know,....and 2, to muffle any sounds bumping the bed into the wall might cause.

But if I interpret the information correctly, Mary was most probably oriented on the right hand side of the bed, on her right side, facing the wall, when she is first attacked. Not with a strangulation attempt though, he got a blade under her chin and pulled back. Thats why I suggest the killer was almost certainly left handed, although I wouldnt rule out some capability with both hands. The odds are against him being truly ambidexterous are very large, its a minute segment of any given population.