Left or right handed.

[RivkahChaya]

I think we are disagreeing based on the above opinion Errata....because I believe that a left handed man could easily get the tip of the blade under her chin and to the starting point on the right of her throat by reaching around her left shoulder while holding the knife. He presses with a sharp knife....if you wonder how sharp just look at the leg wounds.....as it cuts Mary... startled.. she turns her upper body and raises her arms involuntarily in defense.

That means he didn't use a shecting knife...



because the square corner at the top would probably have cut through the mattress.

[Michael W Richards]

Even a lefty can't get his knife into the right side of the throat, as she is lying on it.

I think we are disagreeing based on the above opinion Errata....because I believe that a left handed man could easily get the tip of the blade under her chin and to the starting point on the right of her throat by reaching around her left shoulder while holding the knife. He presses with a sharp knife....if you wonder how sharp just look at the leg wounds.....as it cuts Mary... startled.. she turns her upper body and raises her arms involuntarily in defense.

I dont believe this is rocket science to figure out, but I do believe some preconceptions die harder than others.

Best regards

[RivkahChaya]

Doh!! I forgot that of course Dr Phillips tells us this:

The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner.

Whose right?

Seriously: I'm fairly certain that Dr. Phillips would have called the right side of the bed the side that was on the right from the perspective of someone lying on it. That seems to be the usual convention. And it seems pretty clear that he is talking about the side nearest the partition.

But, if her head is in that corner, at the top of the bed nearest the partition, with the wall at a 90' angle, that's not a very convenient place for anyone, left- or right-handed to get to her right carotid.

She must have been very drunk and sleepy, or even passed out or perhaps partially asphyxiated, so that he could lift her head without her struggling too much, cut her throat with either hand (both equally easy, or equally difficult, take your pick), and dropped her head right back down.

[niko]

hav a butchers !!

Hi everybody, found this and thought it was interesting,

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-left.html

all the best.

Niko

[Jon Guy]

RivkahChaya

Doh!! I forgot that of course Dr Phillips tells us this:

The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner.

[Jon Guy]

Hi RivkahChaya

Why is it necessary that she is fully reclined? Is there some forensic report I do not know about, where the blood spatter indicates that she was of necessity entirely on her side with her head on the bed?

All we have is off Dr Bond`s report, which you will be aware of:
"The bed clothing at the right corner was saturated with blood, and on the floor beneath was a pool of blood covering about two feet square. The wall by the right side of the bed and in a line with the neck was marked by blood which had struck it in a number of separate splashes. .

From the above it appears to me that Kelly, like Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes, McKenzie and Coles were rolled over on to their side at the moment of the throat cut so the killer avoided the blood. The splashes of blood on the wall probably escaped before the body was tilted. Could be the same with Chapman, where a couple of spurts seem to have hit the fence.

[Errata]

Hi all,

I think Errata that you had a difficult time assessing exactly how a right handed man gets to the right side of a neck when the victim is on her right side facing away, so you just assumed that he moved her onto her back before he cuts the throat. Thats not the way the evidence reads though, she was moved to the middle of the bed after the attack, and thats actual contemporary opinion for you.

What is often difficult is imagining the actual mechanics required to accomplish actions after the fact, its like de-engineering I suppose.

But it is critical that you have the scenario correct when you begin. So, Mary is on the bed, on the right side of the bed, facing the wall. That means she is on her right side. The killer must approach from behind her, there is no room on the other side of the bed to stand in. The attack from behind suggests surprise, the defensive wounds suggest that she was awake and aware as she was attacked.

Theres the scene...now, how again does a right handed man cut her throat within those parameters?

Cheers

Maybe you mean something that is different than I am picturing when you say she is one her side. If she is on her right side, her right ear is on the pillow or the mattress. The beginning of a throat cut on the right side involves starting the cut right below the ear on the neck, more or less. Which gives the killer exactly two options. Slide the knife between her neck and the pillow without her noticing in order to start the cut in the right place (which is just silly), or turn her head and shoulders to get the part of the neck he is going for off the pillow. Otherwise, nobody can get to that part of the neck whatever hand they use. It's on the mattress. Without turning her head and shoulders, the cut would have to start at the adam's apple. Even a lefty can't get his knife into the right side of the throat, as she is lying on it. Just like you can't stab someone in the chest if they are lying on their stomach.

Now if she is awake and alert, lying on her side but with her head propped in her hand, then there is some room to maneuver. A person can be shifted without them being moved. Push down on the raised shoulder, while pulling it towards you and the head and body tilts. It doesn't get picked up and moved to the middle of the bed, the legs don't move, just the upper torso shifts from a 90 degree angle to the bed to a 130 degree angle, making the right side of the throat available.

I would do it righty. And I tried it on my fiance with a handy carrot. Again, the cross draw is important to retaining contact with the throat. So I would reverse my grip, shoulders parallel to her body angle, lean over, press the knife against the right side of the throat that is no longer on a mattress, and pull across, rotating my shoulders so they are square with the wall behind her head. If I did it lefty, again needing the cross draw, I would do the exact same thing, except end up facing the opposite wall at her feet. Cutting the throat without using a cross draw is complicated at best. A lefty facing her head instead of her feet has to press in like ten times harder to maintain contact, and get in deep. And the there is no way to continue the cut to the left side of the throat without either switching hands or making some serious position changes, like squatting or taking two steps back. Cutting upwards from the right side to the adam's apple is easy, but cutting downwards to the other ear is awkward.

I can do it. I've attacked my fiance a couple of times now, so he's all irritated. And I can do it both ways, left and right handed. I just change how I stand and what direction I face. But she can't have the right side of her face on the bed and still get that side of her throat cut. He has to shift her somehow so that the back of her head is on the bed, not the side.

What did you come up with?

[RivkahChaya]

What is often difficult is imagining the actual mechanics required to accomplish actions after the fact, its like de-engineering I suppose.

Do you mean "reverse engineering"?

Why is it necessary that she is fully reclined? Is there some forensic report I do not know about, where the blood spatter indicates that she was of necessity entirely on her side with her head on the bed? If forensics was that sophisticated, then it almost certainly could have told us with certainty what hand the killer used.

Why could she not have been sitting up on the bed, with him sitting behind her, or the killer lying next to her, and then grabbing her, and rolling her onto himself, and reaching his right arm around, then rolling back?

The wounds on her hands might come from sloppy downward motion, with the knife cutting her hands right after her throat.

Or, they are genuine defensive wounds, and then any theories that she was attacked from behind are simply wrong.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think Errata that you had a difficult time assessing exactly how a right handed man gets to the right side of a neck when the victim is on her right side facing away, so you just assumed that he moved her onto her back before he cuts the throat. Thats not the way the evidence reads though, she was moved to the middle of the bed after the attack, and thats actual contemporary opinion for you.

What is often difficult is imagining the actual mechanics required to accomplish actions after the fact, its like de-engineering I suppose.

But it is critical that you have the scenario correct when you begin. So, Mary is on the bed, on the right side of the bed, facing the wall. That means she is on her right side. The killer must approach from behind her, there is no room on the other side of the bed to stand in. The attack from behind suggests surprise, the defensive wounds suggest that she was awake and aware as she was attacked.

Theres the scene...now, how again does a right handed man cut her throat within those parameters?

Cheers

[Wickerman]

Or he had it in a bag or box. Which presents it's own problems, like how do you pull it out of a bag without her noticing.

While she's looking the other way, ...getting undressed, ...combing her hair, ...because he tells her to look away - he's 'shy', ...when she turns her back to him to commence that particular brand of 'safe sex'?
How difficult can it be?

Are 'we' sure 'we' are not creating problems that don't exist?

[RivkahChaya]

First, let us discuss the victim on her side. This totally depends on whether she is asleep, or merely lying on her side. People who sleep on their side don't really do any such thing.

Then, you have the big-busted woman who sleeps on her stomach. I've slept on my stomach since I don't know when. After having a kid, and having nursing breasts, and also gaining some baby-weight I never lost (he's six, and I've given up on it), some of which is in the chest, because I'm a cup larger than I was before the baby. And, the fact is, that even when I was young, and weighed 130lbs., I still could have been described as "busty." (38C)

So, I have a really firm pillow, and I sleep with my head up on the pillow, my chest sort of sideways, and one arm under me with the other on the pillow (very occasionally, I wake up with both arms on the pillow), and then my stomach and hips flat on the mattress. I can fall asleep facing either way, and don't know that I have a preference for sleeping on one side of my face or the other.

It has just now occurred to me that this is a vulnerable way to sleep, if I'm worried about having my throat cut. Someone next to, or beside me, could very easily pull my head against his torso for leverage, either by putting his hand on my forehead, or grabbing the hair on the top of my head, and my throat is completely exposed.

Regarding the knife, bayonets that fixed onto the ends of rifles were used very much during the US Civil War, so the idea of a blade that detaches from the handle, and snaps back on, had been around for a while in 1888. JTR may have had a knife that separated from the handle when he was carrying it around, for better concealment. It may even been personalized. He even could have had more than one handle, for different purposes.

[Steve S]

The whole idea of knife carry is an interesting one..with safety,concealment and ease of access all playing a part....Not propounding as answers,but I reckon either a right leg "truncheon pocket" set-up or a left forearm sheath would work...If he was that organised! ...(reverse if left-handed...)

[Errata]

People carried knives then, though. Even up through the mid-20th century, people carried small knives. My father, who was a college professor, carried a folding pocket knife, and I knew a lot of men who still carried Boy Scout knives. My junior high school even had a rule that if you brought a knife to school (other than in your lunch), it could only be a folding pocket knife, shorter than something pretty short, but the rule specifically banned switchblades, while allowing Official Boy Scouts of America knives.

In schools in the US now, I don't even think you can bring a butter knife in your lunch, unless it's plastic.

I was a little kid, so I don't remember why, but I do remember that my father did use his on occasion, and not for nefarious purposes. Sometimes he used it as a screw driver, or to pry things. I think it was more a matter of no one seeing anything wrong with carrying knives, so people did.

But, at any rate, ankle sheathes. I know a lot of people who have those. Almost everyone I know who does a lot of hiking or camping has one. Those probably existed in 1888, and even if they were uncommon, I don't think you'd have to be a genius to come up with the idea independently.

Well, an ankle sheath only works with a blade so long, and that depends on the wearier. I wore one during Living Chess Match for a coup de grace during my second fight, and I thought I was so smart but it was a 14 inch dull hunk of steel strapped to my ankle working as a very effective splint, and rubbing the skin off my ankle.

I think one of the blades used on Kelly was more than five inches long, probably six or seven. Which seems fine until you add a three inch hilt, and now you have an 8-10 inch blade, which just does not go in a boot well. Back of the pants seems to be the murder weapon storage of choice, but she'd feel it. As she would if it were on his belt or his side.

To me, it means that she didn't think anything of the knife. It did not trigger "Possible Jack The Ripper" in her mind. So she knew him maybe, or the knife was common to the man's profession. A sailors knife, a military dagger, maybe even tailor shears.

Or he had it in a bag or box. Which presents it's own problems, like how do you pull it out of a bag without her noticing. Because despite the fact they are inside, there are a lot of things he can't count on that evidently he is counting on. He can't count on her falling asleep within his timeline. Not something he has cared about previously. Which I think is telling. He doesn't know how much time he has, but evidently he is counting on having a couple of hours. And he can't keep her in the room without the knife. If she wants to go back out for more drinks, he can't stop her without seriously alarming her, and possibly leading to her escape if he can't get to his knife in a timely fashion. He doesn't have control over her without the knife. So I can't see him putting it elsewhere.

I dunno. It's one of the reasons it makes me think That Mary Kelly wasn't killed by Jack. Too many changes.

[Errata]

I wonder if that part in bold was accidental?

You bring up a good point that in fact helps my case Errata, the circumstances, the physicality required by the unique arrangements of the victims on the ground, or on the bed, can assist us if we can accurately recreate or reproduce the actions required to accomplish what we have to use as crime scene evidence.

Its not enough to assume motions,... specify. In my case I would love to see a specific series of actions suggested that would allow a right handed killer to access the right side of the throat of a woman who is lying on her right side, facing away, and is in a horizontal position while I am in a vertical one.

Best regards

Ok. Give me a minute, I'm bringing in my trusty assistant. (who has had his throat cut quite a few times at this point.) I'm a big fan of trying things out.

We have a couple of options it seems. And a lot of it depends on positioning and the familiarity with the knife as a combat tool. First, let us discuss the victim on her side. This totally depends on whether she is asleep, or merely lying on her side. People who sleep on their side don't really do any such thing. They tend to be at a 45 degree angle to the mattress, as opposed to the 90 degree angle you would have if you were on your side on the floor playing monopoly or whatever. If she is sleeping the way described above, and has her head on the pillow, the simple fact is right or left handed, you don't get the right side of the neck at all. You have to turn her, at least a little. The point in the neck you are trying to get to is facing the mattress. The other way people sleep on their sides is that they are in fetal position from the waist down, but their torso is canted upright, almost on their back. In that case the right side of the neck is as exposed as it would be were she flat on her back.

As long as the proper point of the neck is exposed, it can be cut with either hand. For me, the easiest way is to reverse my grip on the knife, so the blade is coming out pinky side and not thumb side. The mechanics involved are not terribly different that using a sickle. You bring the blade down so it goes behind the ear, and then yank forward. If I were using my left hand, it's a little harder, because when you pull a knife towards you, you pull it towards the shoulder of the hand you are using. So left handed, standing below the head facing her back isn't going to work because you have to fight to maintain contact with the throat. You either have to move above her head and face the other way, or get lower by about two feet. Obviously the first choice is easier, but the second choice can be accomplished merely by sitting on the bed. So it depends on how wed you are to the idea that he was standing. Or he could use both hands which will straighten out the cutting track.

The real question is, where do you put your other hand? And this does relate to the above. If he is standing and she is lying on a bed, and kind of on the opposite side of the bed, then he is making a quick sharp jerking movement while bent over at a significant angle. And we assume he wants neither to fall into the corpse not back on his rump. So he has to steady himself with the other hand. The bed seems like the obvious choice, but if she is sleeping (as opposed to passed out where none of this applies) that's a significant motion that could disturb her. Especially since he would be planting most of weight like, and inch away from her on a crap mattress. It would cause her to roll towards his hand. The best way to stabilize both himself and his victim would to grab her left shoulder and press down on it, rolling her head towards him exposing the throat, and keeping his balance. But she would absolutely wake up to that. The only way he doesn't risk waking her is by throwing himself way over balance by planting a hand on the opposite wall. Making using the left hand impossible, and the right pretty tricky. If he's a lefty he can steady himself on the headboard.

If she wasn't asleep and was just lying on her side, there's no reason not to reposition her to a more convenient posture. Lefty or righty, it would be best if she was flat on her back. So he pulls her shoulder towards him so she shifts to her back, and then he cuts her throat. If she's passed out drunk, he could twirl her over his head and cut her throat while she was in a headstand and she wouldn't make a peep. So I reject the notion that she was passed out, simply because there is no reason to leave her in such an inconvenient position.

People do automatically adjust for this stuff if possible. It's why we turn a piece of paper 30 degrees when we start to write on it (at least with our alphabet. People who write Hebrew turn it the other way, no matter what hand they write with). So I don't see him sitting there going "Gee, Maybe I should move towards the door, no, wait, maybe facing the foot of the bed.. no.." He took whatever steps he needed to take to adjust, assuming they were available to him.

I would do it righty because I wouldn't want to move towards a wall and get myself crowded in. I'm also more comfortable with a reverse grip than a standard one, for which I get teased mercilessly. And this is something I could do with either hand. But if I had to essentially stand against the wall to be in position to cut her throat, I'd do it lefty since I'm not going to fight the wall for elbow room. Personally, I wouldn't care about waking her, because I'm confident of my ability to conceal the knife in my hand until it comes up for the blow, which means she won't have time to scream. Assuming I care if she screams.

But no matter which hand I use, how I steady myself, what state the victim is in, the easiest thing to do if she is even a little turned away from me is to stab her in the side of the throat that is closest. I might make along cut later, but that is by far the easiest way to dispatch her. Doing anything else is either ignorance or compulsion. If someone thinks they have to cut the throat from ear to ear to kill someone, or someone who has to slice across the throat or the become desperately uncomfortable and feel just wrong. Why make your job harder, you know? The problem is, the two hardest types of people to pin down are the stupid and the mad. And if he's stupid or OCD, he may do ridiculous things that make no sense for reasons we may never understand. At which point, I got nothing. For all I know he did it from under the bed while singing arias from Rigoletto.

[Michael W Richards]

Maybe... But I managed to work in the phrase "Perry Mason moment", whereas you, sadly, did not.

Actually I expounded not because of the handedness issue, but because of how body motion often dictates which hand we use, not which hand we are more comfortable with. With all of the things in these murders that require cross draws, stabilizing hands, two hands, control vs. strength in order to keep from stabbing himself in the gut with his own knife, etc. that the knife probably spent an equal amount of time in each hand. For a reason. So any right handed person who thinks they would have had the knife in their right hand to commit a murder hasn't considered all the variables dictated by their own bodies. Never mind the crime scene.

I wonder if that part in bold was accidental?

You bring up a good point that in fact helps my case Errata, the circumstances, the physicality required by the unique arrangements of the victims on the ground, or on the bed, can assist us if we can accurately recreate or reproduce the actions required to accomplish what we have to use as crime scene evidence.

Its not enough to assume motions,... specify. In my case I would love to see a specific series of actions suggested that would allow a right handed killer to access the right side of the throat of a woman who is lying on her right side, facing away, and is in a horizontal position while I am in a vertical one.

Best regards