The victim that survived a JtR attack

[Losmandris]

Hi Frank,

I agree that there is no reason to doubt the possibility that the ripper had unsuccessful of aborted attempts either before or during the series. You’re quote seems to me to be a perfect example of this possibility. Despite any experience or efficiency that the killer might have gained I’m guessing that he’d have been in a state of excitement/nervous tension? This might lead to making a grab for the woman a split second too soon or perhaps while she was moving? One tiny error and the victim might have a chance to scream out or perhaps wriggle free? Then there would have been the consideration that some women are much stronger than others or are more handy in a fight.

Although we don’t know the woman’s background we know that she was penniless and homeless and desperate enough to go down a passageway with a complete stranger for money so she may or may not have resorted to prostitution previously. I’d say that this this could very well have been a failed attempt by the ripper and there may have been more.

I really don't want to start anything and please everyone, lets not! But that is why I think Stride 'is' a JtR victim. I think either he or she did something to cause things to be ended quickly. He may not have been as skilled at 'making a move' as we think was not Nichols very drunk, Chapman quite ill and MJK in bed. Not sure with Eddowes, was he just lucky in his attempt?

[Losmandris]

Absolutely, Los!

The aborted attempts may have involved no violence or threat of violence whatsoever.

It could have been something as simple as engaging a prostitutes services, then backing out promptly if the circumstances didn't feel right for whatever reason.

Like you say, it's impossible to verify as it would have gone unreported and likely unremarked.

it would probably appear completely inconsequential to the intended victim.

If I could, I'd build a time machine and go back, plant myself among the unfortunates and ask these kind of questions.

Really getting into the "nitty gritty" of their transactions so to speak.

Perhaps they would talk more freely to a fellow female rather than a dude cop!

Anyway, sadly I don't have a time machine so I'm left speculating.....!

I think by asking the right questions, there would be/would have been a very good good chance to discover who the murderer was. As has been often speculated, he was probably living in plain sight.

[Yabs]

I need to look up her story, but sceptical if Annie claimed it was JtR rather than the police identifying the possibility.

Would this be her? This is from 24th November 1888.

[Joshua Rogan]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the amount offered.
Again, assuming this is a genuine story.

The 'fact' she held two polished farthings in her hands testifies to what he offered her, regardless whether it makes sense to us.
It's what we must regard as material evidence, which is quite different than her just claiming he offered two farthings. If the reporter didn't see the farthings then she may have just made it up, but if he did then it isn't for us to judge the rationale of an irrational killer.
As I said above, there are other small circumstances about this incident that make it very interesting.

I hadn't thought of that...perhaps she lied about the farthings being polished to look like half-sovereigns to show she wasn't bought too cheaply?

[Wickerman]

Dear oh dear, miscalculated again - I think I doubled originally when I should have halved. Two half-sovereigns is worth one pound=240 pennies=two months doss. Which is still sixty times what I understand was the going rate of 4d.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the amount offered.
Again, assuming this is a genuine story.

The 'fact' she held two polished farthings in her hands testifies to what he offered her, regardless whether it makes sense to us.
It's what we must regard as material evidence, which is quite different than her just claiming he offered two farthings. If the reporter didn't see the farthings then she may have just made it up, but if he did then it isn't for us to judge the rationale of an irrational killer.
As I said above, there are other small circumstances about this incident that make it very interesting.

[Wickerman]

Hi Eten,

I've always wondered if the woman in the article below from the Lloyd's Weekly News of 30 September was such a victim...

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."

Not that it helps us a lot in the sense of a useful physical descriprion of the attacker, but it's interesting that the attack took place only 3 days before "the double event" and might fit with how the Ripper went to work.

Cheers,
Frank

If that is a genuine example, it does answer the query of why the killer scattered their possessions around (Chapman, Eddowes), he was looking for the coins he gave them. Also, why no money was found on the victims.
If the police/public learned how he enticed his victims streetwalkers would be on their guard for anyone flashing polished farthings around. Though this isn't the first we've read about polished farthings.

In this example, rather than threaten the victim with a knife, he attempted to choke her which is more aligned with Jack the Ripper in my view. I believe he was a strangler who used a knife to mutilate, as opposed to a knife wielding maniac. The first sign of a knife would make any woman scream, but choking is more of a sneak attack not always obvious.
I doubt the vicitms ever saw a knife.
Plus the date, apparently on the 27th, he was ready to strike again.
This to me sounds like a genuine incident involving JtR.

[Joshua Rogan]

Oh, and I calculated incorrectly, it's a mere 4 month's bed money. Still, that's sleeping arrangements sorted until Xmas, which is nothing to be sniffed at.

Dear oh dear, miscalculated again - I think I doubled originally when I should have halved. Two half-sovereigns is worth one pound=240 pennies=two months doss. Which is still sixty times what I understand was the going rate of 4d.

[Observer]

Didn't Sir Henry Smith report that passing off low denomination coins as sovereigns, and half sovereigns was a common occurrence in London? Medals, and tokens also being used. Also, I believe the Ripper was efficient enough, at that point in time, that had the woman encountered the man in question, I doubt she would have emerged unscathed from her ordeal. Why offer two "half sovereigns" wouldn't one have been enough? Shades of Annie Chapman here.

Another bogus incident in my eyes. Another chancer. There were plenty of them about with regard to the Ripper investigation.

[caz]

I wonder...

On the early morning of Thursday 27th September, when this incident occurred, the Dear Boss letter, dated 25th, was about to be received and read by the Central News Agency.

Was this Jack, hoping to get to work again that morning, to make good on his promise in timely fashion?

Love,

Caz
X

[Joshua Rogan]

I see what you mean now, Joshua. I wasn't aware how much he dangled before her eyes (from her point of view, anyway), so this move might, indeed, have made his intended victim more cautious or even have set off alarm bells. Fortunately, the woman was able to scream her way out of this attacker's clutches.

Mmm. Obviously his cunning plan backfired on this occasion.

Oh, and I calculated incorrectly, it's a mere 4 month's bed money. Still, that's sleeping arrangements sorted until Xmas, which is nothing to be sniffed at.

[FrankO]

Oh yes, I dont disagree, Frank. I just can't decide whether or not it's a smart move by the man. If I've calculated correctly, two sovereigns is enough to pay your doss money for about 8 months, so is probably more than enough to persuade any rough sleeper to accompany you, where a more modest sum would not. Yet it's also more than enough to set off major alarm bells, and make the victim even more cautious than they ordinarily would be.
Perhaps, after all, it was a cunning move to dangle a carrot so big thay only the truly desperate would follow it?

I see what you mean now, Joshua. I wasn't aware how much he dangled before her eyes (from her point of view, anyway), so this move might, indeed, have made his intended victim more cautious or even have set off alarm bells. Fortunately, the woman was able to scream her way out of this attacker's clutches.

[Joshua Rogan]

You're right about that, Joshua - I should have added that he didn't need to have been a smooth talker, as some believe he was or must have been. If the attacker in this case actually was Jack the Ripper, that is.

Oh yes, I dont disagree, Frank. I just can't decide whether or not it's a smart move by the man. If I've calculated correctly, two sovereigns is enough to pay your doss money for about 8 months, so is probably more than enough to persuade any rough sleeper to accompany you, where a more modest sum would not. Yet it's also more than enough to set off major alarm bells, and make the victim even more cautious than they ordinarily would be.
Perhaps, after all, it was a cunning move to dangle a carrot so big thay only the truly desperate would follow it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Eten,

I've always wondered if the woman in the article below from the Lloyd's Weekly News of 30 September was such a victim...

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."

Not that it helps us a lot in the sense of a useful physical descriprion of the attacker, but it's interesting that the attack took place only 3 days before "the double event" and might fit with how the Ripper went to work.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I agree that there is no reason to doubt the possibility that the ripper had unsuccessful of aborted attempts either before or during the series. You’re quote seems to me to be a perfect example of this possibility. Despite any experience or efficiency that the killer might have gained I’m guessing that he’d have been in a state of excitement/nervous tension? This might lead to making a grab for the woman a split second too soon or perhaps while she was moving? One tiny error and the victim might have a chance to scream out or perhaps wriggle free? Then there would have been the consideration that some women are much stronger than others or are more handy in a fight.

Although we don’t know the woman’s background we know that she was penniless and homeless and desperate enough to go down a passageway with a complete stranger for money so she may or may not have resorted to prostitution previously. I’d say that this this could very well have been a failed attempt by the ripper and there may have been more.

[FrankO]

Even though it turned out to be fake, two sovereigns is actually a pretty big enticement.

You're right about that, Joshua - I should have added that he didn't need to have been a smooth talker, as some believe he was or must have been. If the attacker in this case actually was Jack the Ripper, that is.

[Joshua Rogan]

It is interesting to see how desperate women actually were and what little enticement Jack the Ripper may have needed to get them to go with him.

Even though it turned out to be fake, two sovereigns is actually a pretty big enticement.