The Absence Of Evidence

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes I did, trying to help you, but as usual you brush it aside and continue with your own beliefs.

Which begs the question ...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

You’re not playing the game Fiver.

Yes his is. Arguing endlessly with Michael Richards on positions that haven't changed in years, is indeed the game.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I am in agreement with your scenario up to Diemshitz and Koze (AKA Issacs) viewing the body. After that I would, with respect, suggest that your hypothesis has a timing problem. Diemshitz says that he went to find a PC and Eagle went in another direction and found a PC in Commercial Road. The time taken for Koze to leave and return with Diemshitz is greater than that required for Eagle to get to Lamb in Commercial Road, particularly when Diemshitz was interrupted by both Spooner and Harris. Koze, using the singular "I", says he immediately left to find a PC in Fairclough, but failed, and eventually found a PC in Commercial Road. Neither Eagle nor Koze state that they left with the other. Diemshitz also testified that he arrived back at the yard with Spooner at the exact time that Eagle arrived with Lamb. Koze can't have been arriving at the yard with both Diemshitz and Eagle when Lamb arrived.

Hi George, thankyou.
There's a couple of timing issues actually, but you're right in some quotes it is difficult to separate Eagle leaving the yard from Diemshutz & Kozebrodski leaving - did they leave at the same time, but in different directions?

I'm still putting this sequence together - a work in progress.

Here we have Diemshutz saying when he and Spooner returned, Eagle arrived back at the same time.

"I passed several streets without seeing a policeman, and returned without one. As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head, and then for the first time I saw the wound in her throat. Just at that time Eagle, a member of the club, and the constables arrived."
East London Observer.


After searching along Fairclough St. we have Diemschutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner returning to Berner St., but only Diemshutz with Spooner entered the yard, Kozebrodski continues up Berner St. and finds Eagle.

Kosebrodski says:
"I afterwards went into the Commercial-road, along with Eagle, and found two officers".
Evening Standard

The Evening News writes:
"Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor."

PC Lamb said two men came running towards him in Commercial Rd, so Kozebrodski must have found Eagle before they met the PC.

All I can think of at the moment is, that Diemshutz & Spooner, after returning to the yard, spent more time looking over the body (Spooner lifting her chin), than they thought, 2-3 minutes would be enough to allow Kozebrodski time to run up to Commercial Rd. where Eagle was.
Which means Eagle didn't return 'at the same moment', but after several minutes?

Which suggests Eagle may not have left the yard initially at the same time as Diemshutz, but minutes later.

[GBinOz]

Yes I did, trying to help you, but as usual you brush it aside and continue with your own beliefs.
Forget the times Michael, it is the sequence of events that are important.

Here, the Morning Advertiser...
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Times.
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Evening News.
"The next person in importance to Eagle, on whose information we may look forward to getting a clue to the perpetrator of these outrageous crimes is Isaac M. Kozebrodsky. Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly. His information, which we are obliged to give very shortly, is this: "I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard,"

Diemshutz discovers the body, he goes into the club and returns to the yard with his friend, Kozebrodski - thats all there is to it.

Kozebrodski then says about Diemshutz:
"So I came out with him and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door. The blood in the gutter extended to between six and seven yards. I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one."

Diemshutz says:
"..A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police,.."
Morning Advertiser.

This is what Eagle said:
"After I had been in the club 20 minutes the steward came in and said there was a woman lying in the yard. I went down into the yard and saw the blood, and afterwards assisted to find the police."
Morning Advertiser.

Both Diemschutz and Kozebrodski ran east along Fairclough St. to Grove, on their way back they brought Spooner who had been standing outside the Beehive pub on the corner of Christian St.

Spooner:
"After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard,.."

Spooner also says:
"...I put my hand under her chin when the match was alight."

Diemshutz said:
"As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head"

Diemshutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner all returned to Berner St.
However, Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to Commercial Rd, only Diemshutz & Spooner entered Dutfields Yard. At some point Kozebrodski meets Eagle.

Diemshutz said:
"There was another of the Club, named Eagle, who also ran out to get a policeman. He went in a different direction to the others, and found two officers somewhere in Commercial-road."

Kozebrodski says:
"Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor."
Evening News.

PC Lamb said:
"I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder."

One of the men was Eagle, the other seems to have been Kozebrodski.

From this it is apparent that the Secretary Story of a chase involved Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, both looking for a policeman along Fairclough St.
Diemshutz & Kozebrodski left the yard, but it was Diemshutz & Spooner who returned.
Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to find a policeman in Commercial Rd.
Wess thought the two men who came back were the same as the two who left which is why he told the reporter the second man involved in the chase was not a member of the club.

Hi Jon,

I am in agreement with your scenario up to Diemshitz and Koze (AKA Issacs) viewing the body. After that I would, with respect, suggest that your hypothesis has a timing problem. Diemshitz says that he went to find a PC and Eagle went in another direction and found a PC in Commercial Road. The time taken for Koze to leave and return with Diemshitz is greater than that required for Eagle to get to Lamb in Commercial Road, particularly when Diemshitz was interrupted by both Spooner and Harris. Koze, using the singular "I", says he immediately left to find a PC in Fairclough, but failed, and eventually found a PC in Commercial Road. Neither Eagle nor Koze state that they left with the other. Diemshitz also testified that he arrived back at the yard with Spooner at the exact time that Eagle arrived with Lamb. Koze can't have been arriving at the yard with both Diemshitz and Eagle when Lamb arrived.

The way I see it is, Diemshitz sends Koze out, and follows shortly after with Jacobs. Eagle departs, headed for Commercial Road. Koze goes into Fairclough and then up Batty St, runs into Eagle on the corner of Commercial and Batty, and they spot Lamb to the east on Commercial Road. Diemshitz and Jacobs continue along Fairclough to Grove and then turn back, encountering Spooner and Harris on the return trip. Diemshitz and Spooner return to the yard as Eagle and Koze arrive with Lamb. Jacobs is not mentioned at this stage, but it would be my guess that he continued looking for a PC in the area where they encountered Harris, and it was he that informed Collins of the situation.

JMO.

Cheers, George

[Wickerman]

You put in parentheses that Issacs was in fact Issac Kozebrodski, Louis didnt say that, he said Issacs,...

Yes I did, trying to help you, but as usual you brush it aside and continue with your own beliefs.
Forget the times Michael, it is the sequence of events that are important.

Here, the Morning Advertiser...
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Times.
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court, and the former struck a match while the latter lifted the body up."

Evening News.
"The next person in importance to Eagle, on whose information we may look forward to getting a clue to the perpetrator of these outrageous crimes is Isaac M. Kozebrodsky. Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly. His information, which we are obliged to give very shortly, is this: "I came into the club about which you are asking me at half-past twelve o'clock. Shortly after I came in Diemschitz asked me to come out into the yard,"

Diemshutz discovers the body, he goes into the club and returns to the yard with his friend, Kozebrodski - thats all there is to it.

Kozebrodski then says about Diemshutz:
"So I came out with him and he then pointed out to me a stream of blood, which was running down the gutter in the direction of the gate, and flowed from the gate to the back-door. The blood in the gutter extended to between six and seven yards. I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one."

Diemshutz says:
"..A member named Isaacs went down to the yard with me, and we struck a match and saw the blood right from the gate up the yard. Then we both went for the police,.."
Morning Advertiser.

This is what Eagle said:
"After I had been in the club 20 minutes the steward came in and said there was a woman lying in the yard. I went down into the yard and saw the blood, and afterwards assisted to find the police."
Morning Advertiser.

Both Diemschutz and Kozebrodski ran east along Fairclough St. to Grove, on their way back they brought Spooner who had been standing outside the Beehive pub on the corner of Christian St.

Spooner:
"After talking for about 25 minutes I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street, and into Dutfield's yard,.."

Spooner also says:
"...I put my hand under her chin when the match was alight."

Diemshutz said:
"As I returned a man whom I had met in Grove-street, and who had come back with me, lifted up the deceased's head"

Diemshutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner all returned to Berner St.
However, Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to Commercial Rd, only Diemshutz & Spooner entered Dutfields Yard. At some point Kozebrodski meets Eagle.

Diemshutz said:
"There was another of the Club, named Eagle, who also ran out to get a policeman. He went in a different direction to the others, and found two officers somewhere in Commercial-road."

Kozebrodski says:
"Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me, and they sent for a doctor."
Evening News.

PC Lamb said:
"I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder."

One of the men was Eagle, the other seems to have been Kozebrodski.

From this it is apparent that the Secretary Story of a chase involved Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, both looking for a policeman along Fairclough St.
Diemshutz & Kozebrodski left the yard, but it was Diemshutz & Spooner who returned.
Kozebrodski continued up Berner St. to find a policeman in Commercial Rd.
Wess thought the two men who came back were the same as the two who left which is why he told the reporter the second man involved in the chase was not a member of the club.

[GBinOz]

In addition, Mike, I don't believe the second PC (426H), who was on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove Street until 1 am, would have been allowed to leave his post if it would have been before 1 am when they were called. This would, of course, support the notion that it was actually just past 1 am when they were called rather than before.

Hi Frank,

Astute observations, as always.
Lamb testified:
Last Sunday morning, shortly before one o'clock, I was on duty in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street, when two men came running towards me and shouting. I went to meet them, and they called out, "Come on, there has been another murder." I asked where, and as they got to the corner of Berner-street they pointed down and said, "There." I saw people moving some distance down the street. I ran, followed by another constable - 426 H.

A few questions present themselves.
Whose job was it to determine that it was one o'clock and release the fixed-point officer?
Did the release conclude that officer's shift resulting in him departing?
When Eagle and Koze spotted Lamb, was the latter headed towards the fixed point officer, or was he headed west after reaching the fixed point and turning around to resume his beat?
Since Lamb testified he didn't have a watch, one might draw a conclusion that a clock was visible from the fixed point or that 426H had a watch.
Lamb testified that he was followed by 426H. Did 426H have to wait to follow as it was not yet one o'clock? If it was after one o'clock, why was 426H still in place at the fixed point? Was it so close to one o'clock that he hadn't had a chance yet to leave?

My conclusion is that, either way, it was very close to one o'clock (police time) when Lamb responded to Eagle and Koze. I do also note that Diemshitz said that, after the discovery of the body, it took a long time to find a PC. Wess nominated that time interval to be 15 minutes.

I am confident that you will have some logical comments to present on the above, as usual.

Best regards, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

The time estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb. According to 4 out of 5 accounts, Lamb said "around" 1am, not "before". Mortimer's account directly supports Diemschutz, saying she hear his cart about four minutes after she went back inside at around 12:55am.

Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time. His time estimate is supported by Hershberg. They are clearly contradicted by Fanny Mortimer.

Spooner does not agree with Kozebrodsky and Hershberg, By the time he arrived, he saw about a dozen more people than the other two men did, yet his time is 5 to 10 minutes earlier than the times of the other two men.

Spooner contradicts everyone. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky, He contradicts Diemshutz, Weiss, and Eagle. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts Goldstein, He contradicts PC Lamb. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

You’re not playing the game Fiver.

[Fiver]

So, no, the times given by Lave, Eagle and Louis's remarks cannot be considered correct or a validation of the others mentioned. And the other accounts roughly validate each others time, no-one saw Israel, Louis, or Eagle or Lave to validate what they claimed.

The time estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb. According to 4 out of 5 accounts, Lamb said "around" 1am, not "before". Mortimer's account directly supports Diemschutz, saying she hear his cart about four minutes after she went back inside at around 12:55am.

Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time. His time estimate is supported by Hershberg. They are clearly contradicted by Fanny Mortimer.

Spooner does not agree with Kozebrodsky and Hershberg, By the time he arrived, he saw about a dozen more people than the other two men did, yet his time is 5 to 10 minutes earlier than the times of the other two men.

Spooner contradicts everyone. He contradicts Hershberg and Kozebrodsky, He contradicts Diemshutz, Weiss, and Eagle. He contradicts Schwartz. He contradicts Mortimer. He contradicts Goldstein, He contradicts PC Lamb. Spooner even contradicts Spooner.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In addition, Mike, I don't believe the second PC (426H), who was on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove Street until 1 am, would have been allowed to leave his post if it would have been before 1 am when they were called. This would, of course, support the notion that it was actually just past 1 am when they were called rather than before.

Good point Frank. I’d forgotten about the fixed point duty. Michael will ignore it or say that there was no such thing as fixed point duty.

[FrankO]

What about if Lamb said”

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” ?

The Times.

or,

“At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street “

Daily News.

or,

“Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock”

East London Advertiser.

or,

“Early on the morning of Sunday last, while I was on duty in the Commercial-road”

The Echo.

or,

“About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street”

Morning Advertiser.


Good methodology though Michael. Ignore the majority and stick to the single one that like. And you have the nerve to question other people’s assessment of evidence.

In addition, Mike, I don't believe the second PC (426H), who was on fixed-point duty at the corner of Grove Street until 1 am, would have been allowed to leave his post if it would have been before 1 am when they were called. This would, of course, support the notion that it was actually just past 1 am when they were called rather than before.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If Lamb said he saw Eagle before 1am,.

What about if Lamb said”

“About 1 o’clock, as near as I can tell,” ?

The Times.

or,

“At about one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road between Christian-street and Batty-street “

Daily News.

or,

“Police-constable Henry Lamb said that on Sunday morning when he was in Commercial-road, at about 1 o'clock”

East London Advertiser.

or,

“Early on the morning of Sunday last, while I was on duty in the Commercial-road”

The Echo.

or,

“About one o'clock on Sunday morning last I was in Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street”

Morning Advertiser.


Good methodology though Michael. Ignore the majority and stick to the single one that like. And you have the nerve to question other people’s assessment of evidence.

[Michael W Richards]

"I (Issac singular) was in this club last night. I (Issac singular) came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard. He (Louis) told me there was something in the yard, and told me (Issac singular) to come and see what it was. When we (Issac and Louis) had got outside he struck a match, ... and when we looked down on the ground, (Issac and Louis), we (Issac and Louis) could see a long stream of blood. It was running down the gutter from the direction of the gate, and reached to the back door of the club. I (Issac singular) should think there was blood in the gutter for a distance of five or six yards. I (Issac singular), went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, (at the request of Louis or some other member), but I (Issac singular), took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I (Issac singular) afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle,(Issac and Eagle) and found two officers. The officers did not touch the body, but sent for a doctor. A doctor came, and an inspector arrived just afterwards. While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left. I saw a little bunch of flowers stuck above her right bosom".^[1]

According to Issac his awareness of the body was the result of Louis notifying him at 12:40, he was sent out...he did not have company...he saw Eagle and policemen, Lamb says this was just before 1,... and Lamb Eagle and Issac all went back to the gates together.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael, why are you so anxious to be contentious?
Did you miss post 459?
This is the post where I quoted Diemshutz as talking about Kozebrodski, he then mentions Eagle going a different way "TO WHAT WE DID".
The "we" is himself & Kozebrodski.
Post 459 - read it.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/756057-the-absence-of-evidence?p=817826#post817826

You will find a paragraph containing the following pertinent details.

(Louis Diemshutz)
"One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. (meaning - Isaac Kozebrodski)
We struck a match,.....
we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club.
We sent for the police without delay....
we had some difficulty in finding one.
A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski went one way, along Fairclough, while Eagle went a different way.

Any further false accusations like the one below will cause your immediate removal from my xmas list!

You put in parentheses that Issacs was in fact Issac Kozebrodski, Louis didnt say that, he said Issacs,... and you have seen untold amount of times that Issac Kozebrodski said himself that he was sent out by Louis or some other member around 12:40. He says he met Eagle when he was returning, and noted that he was with a PC. Lamb, in this case. Who said he saw Eagle near 1am. How did Lamb see Eagle just before 1am when Louis didnt even discover the body until just after 1, by his own statement, which meant that people would have gone for help 5 minutes or so... at the earliest... after his arrival. That means first leaving for help around 1:05ish. How did Johnson arrive at 1:10 when, according to Louis and yourself, he and Issacs didnt even seek help until around 1:05? How did Lamb see Eagle when Eagle hadnt even left for help yet? How did Issac see Lamb and Eagle return with Lamb around 1 if Louis hadnt even arrived or discovered the body yet? How did Issac Kozebrodski forget that Louis and he went out together within 1 hour?

So, is it your contention that Issac Kozebrodski's statement within 1 hour of the bodies discovery is less trustworthy than your interpreted version of what Louis said? Do you believe Issac Kozebrodski forgot that Louis came with him.. within an hour? I posted Issac K's remarks for you, note when he says I and when he says we. Note the times he gives, and the actions he said took place.

So in your estimation, Louis, who provably did not arrive at the gates at "precisely" 1am as he claimed, knew better about what Issac Kozebrodki did, and when, than Issac did himself?

The basic truths are that Issac didnt forget, he went alone as he stated, that Louis didnt arrive at 1 as he vehemently insisted, he wasnt seen even approaching from 12:50 until 1am, that Lambs recollection of the time he saw Eagle is likely very close to spot on, since his job required him to track his times, and that no-one saw Eagle return, no-one saw Israel or BSM or Pipeman at all, or Liz on the street after 12:35. Multiple witnesses said the discovery time was around 12:40-12:45, which validates when Lamb might have seen Eagle if he had left for help shortly thereafter, and that there are no witnesses that validate anything Israel, Louis or Eagle, or Mrs D or Lave said. Eagle and Lave dont even validate each other despite apparently being in the same place at the same time with no-one else around.

You folks choose the people devoid of any corroborative evidence over multiple corroborated accounts. Think about that.

[Michael W Richards]

The rime estimates by these club members are supported by Fanny Mortimer and PC Lamb.

While Kozebrodsky, a member of the club, gave an earlier time.

Its remarkable how bad at math some folks are. If Lamb said he saw Eagle before 1am, then what time did Eagle leave for help? If Fanny said no-one was seen near the gates after 12:55 until 1, then could Louis have arrived at that same time? If Issac says he was called by Louis to the passageway at 20 to 1, then what time would she have been discovered? Why did Heschberg believe he heard of the woman around 12:40? Why did Spooner think he saw the men running for help and then followed them back to the gates around 12:35-12:40? Why did the Arbeter Fraint state that the murder happened at a quarter to 1? Why didnt anyone see or hear Israel, BSM or Pipeman? Fanny said she could hear bootsteps from inside.

So, no, the times given by Lave, Eagle and Louis's remarks cannot be considered correct or a validation of the others mentioned. And the other accounts roughly validate each others time, no-one saw Israel, Louis, or Eagle or Lave to validate what they claimed.

[Wickerman]

Michael, why are you so anxious to be contentious?
Did you miss post 459?
This is the post where I quoted Diemshutz as talking about Kozebrodski, he then mentions Eagle going a different way "TO WHAT WE DID".
The "we" is himself & Kozebrodski.
Post 459 - read it.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/756057-the-absence-of-evidence?p=817826#post817826

You will find a paragraph containing the following pertinent details.

(Louis Diemshutz)
"One of the members named Isaacs came out with me. (meaning - Isaac Kozebrodski)
We struck a match,.....
we saw a stream of blood flowing right down to the door of the club.
We sent for the police without delay....
we had some difficulty in finding one.
A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski went one way, along Fairclough, while Eagle went a different way.

Any further false accusations like the one below will cause your immediate removal from my xmas list!

He never says he went with Diemshitz, you either missed the "I" quoted above, or the rest of the statement. Lets try being honest about this, it will be more helpful to everyone even though you are wrong...or worse...