JtR and Chokeholds - Generally Accepted M.O.?

[Hunter]

Are there any examples of garroting with a cord where another weapon such as a knife was used? It seems like too much to keep up with as far as a murderer would be concerned. Without going into detail, it seems apparent that Polly and Annie were simply throttled, while Liz and Kate were likely pulled to the ground and throat cut before any reaction was possible. They were both wearing neckerchiefs.

[erobitha]

What may be the relevance of an epidemic of garrotting in the early 1860's, when the Whitechapel Murders took place a generation later?
A 30-40 year old suspect in 1888 was a teenager in the panic stricken London of 1862.
The original post suggesting a chokehold (garrotting) is very valid, regardless how it was done.

It could mean someone who may have been a victim of garrotting in the 1860’s turned from prey to hunter.

Possibly.

[Wickerman]

I think you have this the wrong way round, Jon - restricting blood flow to the brain directly (via compression of the carotid arteries) will cause loss of consciousness faster than restricting only air flow to the lungs (via compression of the windpipe, thus indirectly restricting the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain). And both at once won't speed up either method. A thin cord will be more effective because it can restrict flow more completely. Or at least more reliably.
But a knife cut across the throat will have the same effect, and is faster than either.

Thankyou Joshua, actually on reflection I think it was the quickest way to kill, not to render unconscious. I misremembered the article which compared both methods.

[Wickerman]

Are there any examples of garroting with a cord where another weapon such as a knife was used? It seems like too much to keep up with as far as a murderer would be concerned. Without going into detail, it seems apparent that Polly and Annie were simply throttled, while Liz and Kate were likely pulled to the ground and throat cut before any reaction was possible. They were both wearing neckerchiefs.

Have not found any yet.

[Wickerman]

It could mean someone who may have been a victim of garrotting in the 1860’s turned from prey to hunter.

Possibly.

There are a few articles where the suspects/accused are teenagers. Specifically, this morning, I read of two 15 year olds accused of garrotting.

[MrBarnett]

There are a few articles where the suspects/accused are teenagers. Specifically, this morning, I read of two 15 year olds accused of garrotting.

Someone aged 30 in 1888 would have been 4 in 1862. For the Ripper to have acquired his garrotting skills during the original 1850s/60s garotting epidemic he would have had to have been very young then and middle-aged in 1888.

[Wickerman]

The two 15 year olds would have been 41 in 1888, not too old for most of the suspect descriptions.

What happened a generation prior to 1888 is one thing, but was garrotting still a 'thing' in 1888?
Regardless how the garrotting was applied, we do see at least two instances which made the papers. Both cases occurred in May, both were a case of theft, and both were against men. One attempt failed, but it clearly was not a forgotten crime.

[SuperShodan]

My hobby is Judo and part of our syllabus is Shime Waza which is strangles and chokes. There are lots of books and videos if anyone is interested in the various techniques. Firstly choking somebody out can be done very, very quickly. Chokes and strangles are different, chokes are on the windpipe, like a guillotine choke you see in MMA, and strangles would typically use leverage on clothing, like a collar, to compress the neck and cut the blood supply, like a sleeper hold. My point in all this that JTR would in my opinion been able to choke / strangle his victims quickly. It’s a very efficient way of disabling somebody if you can get a good hold on them. Therefore I think it’s very possible that JTR’s MO was to initially choke his victims (chokes are faster than strangles) especially as they tended to be women in their 40’s and possibly had been drinking. Furthermore, when you’re being choked you can't make a sound.

[Wickerman]

My hobby is Judo and part of our syllabus is Shime Waza which is strangles and chokes. There are lots of books and videos if anyone is interested in the various techniques. Firstly choking somebody out can be done very, very quickly. Chokes and strangles are different, chokes are on the windpipe, like a guillotine choke you see in MMA, and strangles would typically use leverage on clothing, like a collar, to compress the neck and cut the blood supply, like a sleeper hold. My point in all this that JTR would in my opinion been able to choke / strangle his victims quickly. It’s a very efficient way of disabling somebody if you can get a good hold on them. Therefore I think it’s very possible that JTR’s MO was to initially choke his victims (chokes are faster than strangles) especially as they tended to be women in their 40’s and possibly had been drinking. Furthermore, when you’re being choked you can't make a sound.

Welcome.

Just to be clear, you equate 'strangles' with compression of the carotids, and 'chokes' with compression of the windpipe?
When you say 'faster' are you referring to the speed which the victim is overcome?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

My hobby is Judo and part of our syllabus is Shime Waza which is strangles and chokes. There are lots of books and videos if anyone is interested in the various techniques. Firstly choking somebody out can be done very, very quickly. Chokes and strangles are different, chokes are on the windpipe, like a guillotine choke you see in MMA, and strangles would typically use leverage on clothing, like a collar, to compress the neck and cut the blood supply, like a sleeper hold. My point in all this that JTR would in my opinion been able to choke / strangle his victims quickly. It’s a very efficient way of disabling somebody if you can get a good hold on them. Therefore I think it’s very possible that JTR’s MO was to initially choke his victims (chokes are faster than strangles) especially as they tended to be women in their 40’s and possibly had been drinking. Furthermore, when you’re being choked you can't make a sound.

Welcome to the forum.

As Wickerman asked, can you clarify a bit. What sort of technique are you thinking would be likely? The Victorian "garrotting" was typically an arm around the neck from behind. There's certainly speculation about pressuring the carotid arteries at the shoulders. A straightforward neck grab is harder to prove, since the throats being cut obliterates any marks.

What sort of bruising might be apparent with different techniques? More specifically, what method would you suppose was employed?

Most people agree that the victims were subdued, but how, and how quickly, is a different matter.

[Losmandris]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the victims were strangled to death first? I am thinking that stopping the heart from beating would explain why there was no arterial spray of blood. If so I presume this would take significantly longer than rendering someone unconscious? Few minutes?

Tristan

[SuperShodan]

Welcome to the forum.

As Wickerman asked, can you clarify a bit. What sort of technique are you thinking would be likely? The Victorian "garrotting" was typically an arm around the neck from behind. There's certainly speculation about pressuring the carotid arteries at the shoulders. A straightforward neck grab is harder to prove, since the throats being cut obliterates any marks.

What sort of bruising might be apparent with different techniques? More specifically, what method would you suppose was employed?

Most people agree that the victims were subdued, but how, and how quickly, is a different matter.

Thanks Wickerman, glad to be here.
A choke from behind would be hadaka jime in Judo and is translated as a naked rear choke. It’s very powerful and would damage the neck, and at least bruise it. From behind you would have your forearm across the neck with the boney bit of your wrist, on the side of the wrist, just up from the thumb, right into the windpipe. If JTR strangles from behind I believe he would have used this technique or similar. The natural reaction is to pull away from this, but it actually tightens the choke and makes unconsciousness faster. Getting choked isn’t like holding your breath, it’s much faster and you would be able to put somebody out in under 10 seconds.
Moving on, on what technique JTR would have used, I think he would have choked from the front with an open handed double choke, both hands compressing the windpipe just under the chin. Unlike the rear choke, this choke would need some resistance behind the victim, they would need to be up against a wall or lying on the floor so you could put full strength into the choke without them pulling away. It’s impossible to say whether he would attack from front or behind, it’s just my gut feeling that choking from behind needs a bit of technique, the choke from the front is more basic and just requires strength / aggression.
So in my view JTR would have had his victims up against a wall or on the ground, and choked them from the front.

[SuperShodan]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the victims were strangled to death first? I am thinking that stopping the heart from beating would explain why there was no arterial spray of blood. If so I presume this would take significantly longer than rendering someone unconscious? Few minutes?

Tristan

Not sure about how long to actually kill somebody from a choke or strangle, but to choke somebody out, like we do in Judo, is pretty quick, if people don’t immediately tap out they’re gone not long after. So I couldn’t say about fully killing somebody, but to render them unconscious is surprisingly quick.

[Wickerman]

Is there any evidence to suggest that the victims were strangled to death first? I am thinking that stopping the heart from beating would explain why there was no arterial spray of blood. If so I presume this would take significantly longer than rendering someone unconscious? Few minutes?

Tristan

You are correct in that if the heart stops then there is less pressure in the cardiovascular system, less chance of arterial spray. It's just that in such an attack we are only dealing in seconds so there still may be some pressure, but if he waited several minutes it would likely have dissipated, but he doesn't have minutes to wait.
So the answer is a, "Yes, but...."

[Wickerman]

Thanks Wickerman, glad to be here.
A choke from behind would be hadaka jime in Judo and is translated as a naked rear choke. It’s very powerful and would damage the neck, and at least bruise it. From behind you would have your forearm across the neck with the boney bit of your wrist, on the side of the wrist, just up from the thumb, right into the windpipe. If JTR strangles from behind I believe he would have used this technique or similar. The natural reaction is to pull away from this, but it actually tightens the choke and makes unconsciousness faster. Getting choked isn’t like holding your breath, it’s much faster and you would be able to put somebody out in under 10 seconds.
Moving on, on what technique JTR would have used, I think he would have choked from the front with an open handed double choke, both hands compressing the windpipe just under the chin. Unlike the rear choke, this choke would need some resistance behind the victim, they would need to be up against a wall or lying on the floor so you could put full strength into the choke without them pulling away. It’s impossible to say whether he would attack from front or behind, it’s just my gut feeling that choking from behind needs a bit of technique, the choke from the front is more basic and just requires strength / aggression.
So in my view JTR would have had his victims up against a wall or on the ground, and choked them from the front.

Hi, it seems your first example (attacking the windpipe) would be similar to this:



Whereas, the regular 'sleeper hold' (attacking the carotids) is something like this:



The straightforward strangulation is expected to leave thumb & finger tip bruises on either side of the neck, which apparently are not evident.



I think one of the dilemmas we have is the lack of bruising on the neck, there were bruises on the chin & jaw in the case of Nichols, but I think they are easily explained. Chapman had scratches on the side of her neck, but no obvious thumb & finger pressure marks as we might expect if hands were used directly on the throat.
So although many believe these victims were rendered unconscious first, exactly how is always the point of debate.

Also, I think some of us prefer to see the assault coming from behind because if he tried it from the front he is open to violent resistance from the victim scratching or kicking him.