Pub or Street?

[Wickerman]

It refers to Issac[s] Jon, who is not Issac Kozebrodsky. In Issac K's own words he was sent out alone by a member around 12:45, and that as he returned he saw Eagle and the police and joined them.

Hi Michael, I know you've had this bee in your bonnet about someone called Isaac's for some years, but please explain how those at the time could have got it wrong.

Diemschutz says:
"One of the members, who is known as Isaacs, went out with me."

Press Reporter:
A young Russian Pole, named Isaac M. Kosebrodski, born in Warsaw, gave the following information:- "....... About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemshitz called me out to the yard."

A Reporter, again:
"A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,...."

I looked for the name Kozebrodsky in the newspapers and both him & Diemschutz are in trouble with police in connection with other incidents, and portrayed as friends.

I don't understand how you can hope to separate "Isaacs", the associate of Diemschutz, from Isaac Kozebrodsky, the friend of Diemschutz.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi JOn,

Hi Michael, I know you've had this bee in your bonnet about someone called Isaac's for some years, but please explain how those at the time could have got it wrong.

Diemschutz says:
"One of the members, who is known as Isaacs, went out with me." Issacs is obviously a surname, not a given name.

Press Reporter:
A young Russian Pole, named Isaac M. Kosebrodski, born in Warsaw, gave the following information:- "....... About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemshitz called me out to the yard." Note that time Jon. Also make note that Issac K, a 17year old lad, says he was sent out alone.

A Reporter, again:
"A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,...." Did this reporter assume that Diemshitz erred when he said Issac, and where did he get information that the 17 year old Apprentice with a name of Issac Kozebrodki was "commonly" known as Issacs? And why would he be, its his given name, why would anyone pluralize a given name? Would you be Jons to these men?

I looked for the name Kozebrodsky in the newspapers and both him & Diemschutz are in trouble with police in connection with other incidents, and portrayed as friends.

Issac was called an "apprentice", he likely was mentored by Louis, and yes, he did get arrested with Louis the following Spring.

I don't understand how you can hope to separate "Isaacs", the associate of Diemschutz, from Isaac Kozebrodsky, the friend of Diemschutz.

Ok, hows this.....Issac K said he was sent alone and later returned meeting Eagle on the way back. Louis says "Issac[s] accompanied him. He does not say that he and Issac[s] saw Eagle return. Spooner did not identify either of the 2 men he saw running, and since Louis doesn't mention Issac K being sent out, its at least 1 search party that isn't recorded by club staff.

I believe Jon that Issac K's own words supercede a reporters take, and that since we known lots of men had the surname Issacs, and it wouldn't be a surprise to anyone of an Issacs was at the club at that time, and since we know someone with the surname Issacs crops up again later, having moved right around the corner from Mary just before her murder and then moves out without notice the very night she is murdered, we already have a potential suspect named Issacs on the records.

Find me just one historical example where Bill is called Bills, or Arthur is called Arthurs, or Satan is called Satans, then we can accept Issac[s] may have been an error.

Last bit.....if this kid is Louis's apprentice, why wouldn't Louis use his proper given name instead of what some reporter claims was his "nickname".?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Sigh. Why would anybody mistake a dahlia for some grapes...? Oblong blood clots will look like dark, oblong shapes in the flickering light that was there, but a dahlia...? It´s all good and well that you try to exhaust all possibilities, but to me, you are not competing very suddessfully with the simple and logical explanation of the oblong blood clots being mistaken for grapes. Sorry.

Because the inner red area breaks up the white and gives the appearance of a cluster of objects.
The white petals would be translucent, and roughly the size of small grapes.
With the lantern light directly behind, someone a couple of metres away might just have the impression of a hand holding grapes.
The dahlia is in a similar position to the right hand, and in dim light the sense of depth would be degraded, making it look as though the flower is resting on the hand.
Dahlias don't normally look like like grapes, of course, but at the right viewing angle and with the source of light in just the right place, maybe the observer could suppose that they were looking at a hand holding grapes.

In contrast, the 'blood as grapes' notion is going nowhere.
When Lamb pushed downward on the right wrist, in an attempt to prevent the cachous falling, the back of the hand got smeared with blood.
Further blood spilled on the hand, as Lamb relocated the cachous packet against the left hand.
So the bloodied hand does not end up with a perfectly smooth coating of blood, as though it were a layer of paint.
The blood is uneven, but under lantern light, this would hardly be noticeable, if at all.
The clotted spots of blood on the hand, is just blood on blood.
It would not look like grapes. It would not look like berries. It would not look like sultanas.
In the near darkness, the clots would not even be recognised as distinct things.

By the way, what is your theory of how the right hand ended up bloodied?

I agree that Diemschitz is not trustworthy about the hands and what where in them, on the whole. On the concoction matter, it is not unusual that people who reiterate something theve hear also add inclusions of their own. And it is selfevident that IF there were graps in one of her hands, the. she MUST have clenched the hand around them. They would not otherwise remain there during a fall to the ground, would they?

Diemschitz said 'tightly clenched' - which has a substantially different meaning to 'holding'.
If one where to tightly clench some grapes, over a handkerchief, the handkerchief would end up stained - not so if one were simply holding the grapes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi JOn,

I believe Jon that Issac K's own words supercede a reporters take, and that since we known lots of men had the surname Issacs, and it wouldn't be a surprise to anyone of an Issacs was at the club at that time, and since we know someone with the surname Issacs crops up again later, having moved right around the corner from Mary just before her murder and then moves out without notice the very night she is murdered, we already have a potential suspect named Issacs on the records.

Find me just one historical example where Bill is called Bills, or Arthur is called Arthurs, or Satan is called Satans, then we can accept Issac[s] may have been an error.

Last bit.....if this kid is Louis's apprentice, why wouldn't Louis use his proper given name instead of what some reporter claims was his "nickname".?

Let's see if we can get some idea, from Arbeter Fraint, Oct 5, 1888.

From excitement he [Comrade Diemschitz] jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.

'Krants' obviously refers to Philip Krantz.
Don't know of Yaffa.
What about 'Gilyarovsky' - is that Isaac Kozebrodsky, and is IK also 'Isaacs'?
Let's see what Gilyarovsky does next...

“Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”

In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers. One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder. In the meantime, the commotion about the murder drew people, and the street that had been asleep began to become lively.

Sounds like Gilyarovsky could well be Isaacs.
Don't know of Fridenthal.

This section is also worth a read:

The grand jury consists of 12 men, who are selected from among respectable members of the community.
It wasn’t until Tuesday that anyone knew who the murdered woman was. All that was known was that she belonged to the unfortunate street women and was known as “Tall Lisa.” On Tuesday she was identified by her sister, Maria Malcolm, the wife of a tailor.
Her sister, the woman murdered, was 38 years old and had been married to one, named Vots [Watts?]. This person was a son of a wealthy wine merchant in Bath. They [he and his wife] did not get along and he left her. They had two children: one boy and one girl. The girl died and the boy is in boarding school. Since she had been separated from her husband, approximately eight years ago, she began to drink and later also began to lead a licentious life. For the last three years she visited her sister every Saturday, and she [her sister] used to help support her with a few shillings. During those three years, the murdered woman did not fail to visit her sister for [even] one Saturday. The last Saturday she did not come. That made her sister uneasy. On Sunday, when she heard about the murder, she went to the morgue to see the murdered woman and she identified her as her sister.

Note that AF insists that Liz was a prostitute, changes her nickname from 'Long Liz' to 'Tall Lisa', and goes along with the Mary Malcolm story.
They are attempting to obliterate her identity.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Rather than focusing on Isaacs, a better argument might be to critique the club's efforts in finding police.

Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman; ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

Ten minutes?

All they had to do was run up to Commercial Road, then one go left and the other go right, and they would have found a PC in under a minute.

So why where they farnarkling around in Fairclough street?

If this lot didn't call themselves Socialists, they would have been hung out to dry 30 years ago.

[Wickerman]

Hi JOn,

Diemschutz says:
"One of the members, who is known as Isaacs, went out with me." Issacs is obviously a surname, not a given name.

A Reporter, again:
"A member of the club named Kozobrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,...." Did this reporter assume that Diemshitz erred when he said Issac, and where did he get information that the 17 year old Apprentice with a name of Issac Kozebrodki was "commonly" known as Issacs? And why would he be, its his given name, why would anyone pluralize a given name? Would you be Jons to these men?

Hi Michael.
You're obviously not European, I don't think you would be so sure if you had been raised in Europe.

There was a British actress in the 50's-60's called Megs Jenkins, but Megs was not her given name, she was born Muguette Mary Jenkins.
Why pluralize a christian name?, you might want to look that up, but it happens.

Did you know that Meghan Markle was commonly known as "Megs" by her closest friend?

In the case we are debating it is perhaps more preferable among his friends because his surname Kozebrodsky is such a mouthful, besides he was not fluent in English - "Kozebrodsky was born in Warsaw, and can only speak English very imperfectly."
Just call me Isaacs?

I don't understand how you can hope to separate "Isaacs", the associate of Diemschutz, from Isaac Kozebrodsky, the friend of Diemschutz.

Ok, hows this.....Issac K said he was sent alone and later returned meeting Eagle on the way back.....

Thats a weak argument Michael, many witnesses talk about what they did in the singular, so does Diemschutz in some reports, yet we know he was not alone in Fairclough street.
Any abnormality in Kozebrodsky's story may be explained by the fact his English was not perfect, yet your argument relies on it being so.

I know you don't intend to let go of this, though I think it necessary to show that your interpretation is false.

[Curious Cat]

Pure speculation on my part. At the moment this is only in connection with Catherine Eddowes. I wasn't actually aware of Dr Sequiera until after I had inexplicably been drawn to where his house once stood in Jewry Street last year. Since then it's been a case of joining the dots, whether I'm joining them in the right order, though, is another thing. Not sure how it would be possible to track back over his movements in regard to the other victims, though I would say that as a suspect for Catherine this, for me, rules him out for Elizabeth Stride. The observance of the patrol patterns would've taken priority, only leaving the house when sure of the police positions. He was, by his own evidence, very familiar with the locality.

There was also a post (which naturally I can't find right now) about the package containing the kidney sent to Lusk. The post office it was deposited at was just round the corner from Fenchurch Street Station, which in turn was a short walk from Jewry Street where Dr Sequiera lived.

Again, pure speculation.

^^^
Going through this over my mind a few times I have concluded that while it's possible for Dr Sequiera to have carried out the killing undetected it just about seems unlikely. I'll leave him hovering at a distance rather than dismiss him completely, but for now I'm closing this line of thought. Not that anyone would be too bothered by that, I'm sure.