Pub or Street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> In the darkness of Berner St, a stack of papers covered in Yiddish print, could have easily been mistaken for a newspaper wrapping<<

Sorry, but Smith's lack of mention of a third dimension to the parcel, all but rules out a stack small or large.

Not mentioning the parcel's thickness would indicate it was probably quite thin.
Would a thin parcel be more likely to be a stack of a fairly small number of printed papers - which for a small printing facility in 1888, would have been quite expensive to produce, or alternatively, would it be a wrapping of newspaper, containing a single layer of grapes, laid out in a lattice-like manner?

Plus if it were small it won't need to be tied with string.

It was said to be windy when Louis struck the match, the light from which first revealed the murder victim.
When the man with the parcel is ready to wield his knife, he would put the parcel down somewhere, and he wouldn't want the papers to blow away, would he?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> My take on things is that the witnesses saw the oblong bloodclots in the bad lighting and mistook them for grapes.<<

Quite so.

Stride's appearance in the mortuary, from the Evening News, Oct 1:

The woman now lying at the mortuary of St. George's-in-the-East appears to have been about 30 years of age. It is difficult to judge of the height of a person in a recumbent position, but she appears to have been about middle height. Her features are pinched, like those of one who has suffered want, but her expression is not unpleasant. Her cheek bones have a tendency to prominence, and her nose is sharp and well chiselled, with a slight marking at the bridge, far removed, however, from the protuberance of the Roman organ. Her hair is auburn, her lips thick, the upper one especially so, with that sort of double fold often noticed in lascivious women. She has the appearance of being an Irishwoman, but might be a German. She lies there on the stone with a smile of her pale face, as if she had died without a struggle. Her right hand, however, is encrusted with blood, as if she had tried to thrust her murderer away. Her clothing is described by the police as "Black diagonal cloth jacket, feather trimming, black alpaca skirt, black velveteen bodice, black crape bonnet, side-spring boots, white stockings." This seems all right enough except in regard to the "feather" trimmings. The trimming of the short dark jacket is imitation sealskin.

So the hand has a lot of dried blood on it.
The fact that some of this blood is described by Phillips as 'small oblong clots', is hardly reason to suppose that three witnesses would mistake this for grapes.

Phillips: The right arm was lying over the body, and the back of the hand and wrist had on them clotted blood.

Especially when the clots are on the back of the hand!

The fact that you can produce a picture of a blood clot - which surely come in many shapes and sizes - which looks a bit like a small grape, under normal lighting conditions, proves nothing.
There were about 15 to 20 people in the yard when Phillips was looking at the body.
To get a reasonable view of the victim, would have required being almost as close as Phillips.
Did Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer, all have 'front row seats'?

[drstrange169]

>> Fanny sees grapes ...<<

But Fanny didn't see the grapes, she was locked out when the hand was opened. As she said in an interview, "I was told".

Dr Blackwell was the first to move her hands and he testified, "The double doors of the yard were closed when I arrived".


>> Squashed grapes would do a good job of staining a hanky.<<

Why? What sort of stain do you think grapes make?

[drstrange169]

>>Would a thin parcel be more likely to be a stack of a fairly small number of printed papers ... <<

A fairly small number of newspapers would not be a parcel, they would be, a fairly small number of newspapers, and recognised as such.
A "parcel" on the other hand is universally recognised as such.

[drstrange169]

>>The fact that some of this blood is described by Phillips as 'small oblong clots', is hardly reason to suppose that three witnesses would mistake this for grapes.<

Au contraire, it is exactly something a witness in shock might easily mistake for grapes.


>>To get a reasonable view of the victim, would have required being almost as close as Phillips. Did Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer, all have 'front row seats'?<<

Mortimer wasn't there, Diemshitz is on record as saying he didn't pay close attention to the hands and Kozebrodsky couldn't speak English. Not exactly your ideal set of witnesses to trust with accurate information.

By the time they were all interviewed by reporters they would have heard stories about grapes and added it the memories. Once under oath the grape story disappears from Deimshtz's more considered, under oath, testimony.

[Fisherman]

The fact that some of this blood is described by Phillips as 'small oblong clots', is hardly reason to suppose that three witnesses would mistake this for grapes.

It must be considered that if "the grapes" spoken about by the witnesses were really there, then we are looking at somebody removing them from Strides hand before the medicos arrived in the yard. I find that much less credible than a simple mistake, led on by the oblong shape of the blood clots on Strides hand. It offers a completely logical explanation.

There is also the question of what possible reason anybody could have to remove the grapes from Strides hand, if they were actually there.

To make the picture complete, it should be added that although the larger part of the clots were on the back of the hand, there was also one clot on the inside of the wrist.

[Joshua Rogan]

It must be considered that if "the grapes" spoken about by the witnesses were really there, then we are looking at somebody removing them from Strides hand before the medicos arrived in the yard.

Both Louis and Isaac said the grapes were in her hand when the doctors examined her.

Louis: "Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other"

Isaac: "While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> Fanny sees grapes ...<<

But Fanny didn't see the grapes, she was locked out when the hand was opened. As she said in an interview, "I was told".

Dr Blackwell was the first to move her hands and he testified, "The double doors of the yard were closed when I arrived".

No comment - leaving to others.

>> Squashed grapes would do a good job of staining a hanky.<<

Why? What sort of stain do you think grapes make?

Grape juice stain.

>>Would a thin parcel be more likely to be a stack of a fairly small number of printed papers ... <<

A fairly small number of newspapers would not be a parcel, they would be, a fairly small number of newspapers, and recognised as such.
A "parcel" on the other hand is universally recognised as such.

So after midnight on Berner St, an edge formed by a stack of paper would look obviously different to the edge of parcel, to a passing constable.
Whereas blood smeared on a hand - mostly at the back - could look just like a bunch of grapes.
I see.

>>To get a reasonable view of the victim, would have required being almost as close as Phillips. Did Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer, all have 'front row seats'?<<

Mortimer wasn't there, Diemshitz is on record as saying he didn't pay close attention to the hands and Kozebrodsky couldn't speak English. Not exactly your ideal set of witnesses to trust with accurate information.

Daily News, Oct 1:

Diemschitz said: I should think the woman was about 27 or 28 years old. I fancy she was of light complexion. (This turns out to be an incorrect description, but the man appears to have been too frightened to make a careful examination.) It seemed to me that her clothes were in perfect order. I could see that her throat was fearfully cut. She had dark clothes on, and wore a black crape bonnet. Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other. I could not say whether or not she was an unfortunate, but if she was I should judge her to be of a rather better class than the women we usually see about this neighbourhood. I don't think anybody in this district, and certainly none of our members, had ever seen her before. The police removed the body to Cable-street Mortuary. When I first saw the woman she was lying on her left side. Her left hand was on the ground, and the right was crossed over the breast.

Kozebrodsky gave a statement in English.

By the time they were all interviewed by reporters they would have heard stories about grapes and added it the memories. Once under oath the grape story disappears from Deimshtz's more considered, under oath, testimony.

Perhaps he considered it wise, not to lie as much as he had to the press.

[Fisherman]

Both Louis and Isaac said the grapes were in her hand when the doctors examined her.

Louis: "Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other"

Isaac: "While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

Well, that pretty much rules out that they were grapes. Because the medicos would naturally have mentioned them. It also tells me that the witnesses were not very close to the body when they made their observations, and so it becomes a very good suggestion that they mistook the blood clots for grapes. End of story, as far as I´m concerned!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It must be considered that if "the grapes" spoken about by the witnesses were really there, then we are looking at somebody removing them from Strides hand before the medicos arrived in the yard. I find that much less credible than a simple mistake, led on by the oblong shape of the blood clots on Strides hand. It offers a completely logical explanation.

There is also the question of what possible reason anybody could have to remove the grapes from Strides hand, if they were actually there.

To make the picture complete, it should be added that although the larger part of the clots were on the back of the hand, there was also one clot on the inside of the wrist.

The grapes and cachous are a fairly big topic - I might write up a longer post for a new thread, in the next few weeks.

For now, will just note 3 things about Dr Phillips reference to 'small oblong clots', in relation to a possible mistaken recognition of grapes in Stride's hand:

1. How small is 'small'? - an eighth of an inch? a half inch?
2. Grapes are not oblong in shape
3. Phillips reference to the clots was made at the mortuary, not the crime scene. The 'optical illusion of grapes theory', relies on arbitrarily mixing viewing locations

[Wickerman]

>> My take on things is that the witnesses saw the oblong bloodclots in the bad lighting and mistook them for grapes.<<

Quite so.

Any blood clots were on the back of her hand, is that where you would hold your grapes? :-)
So, why do you show the grapes in the palm of a hand?

[Wickerman]

Not mentioning the parcel's thickness would indicate it was probably quite thin.

On the contrary, if the parcel was rounded, as opposed to flat, then that third dimension is somewhat debatable, like a hand wrapped parcel would be.
It's easy to see two dimensions of this parcel, but what about a third?



In my view PC Smith saw a parcel something like the above.

[Wickerman]

The fact that you can produce a picture of a blood clot - which surely come in many shapes and sizes - which looks a bit like a small grape, under normal lighting conditions, proves nothing.

For what it's worth, on leaving school I spent three years as a butchers apprentice. I never saw a clot of blood the size of a grape. Normally they are the size of a match head, either singular or in a long string on the edge of a wound.

The most ridiculous aspect of this issue is that we are supposed to believe several witnesses approached a dead body where blood was clearly visible, and yet at least three people immediately thought of grapes!!!!! as opposed to blood smears or blood clots on her hand.
Sorry to be blunt, but that is borderline stupid!

[Wickerman]

[I][B]


>> Squashed grapes would do a good job of staining a hanky.<<

Why? What sort of stain do you think grapes make?

They were purple grapes, so a reddish-blue stain is perhaps likely. The point is, the fruit stain is consistent with her handling some kind of fruit. Which is not the normal food for people of her class. It speaks to Stride handling something out of the ordinary.

[Wickerman]

Well, that pretty much rules out that they were grapes. Because the medicos would naturally have mentioned them. It also tells me that the witnesses were not very close to the body when they made their observations, and so it becomes a very good suggestion that they mistook the blood clots for grapes. End of story, as far as I´m concerned!

Hi Christer.

The main caveat with that assumption is that we have no statement with respect to grapes from Dr Johnson. He was never asked about seeing any, and why would he be? The subject of any grapes only surfaced at the inquest on the 5th (Friday), following the mention by Packer being published in the press the evening prior.

Kozebrodsky's story is related more sequentially, as if he is describing what he saw before Dr Johnson arrived at the yard.
It is clear from the testimony that Johnson was believed to be one of "the doctors", regardless of him being only Blackwell's assistant. The witnesses at the scene were not to know that.

Diemschutz mentions the arrival of "the doctor", presumably Johnson as he was the first to arrive. He also mentions "the doctor" opened the hands, which was when he first saw the grapes.
All this transpired before Blackwell arrived on the scene.

Once her hand was moved any grapes may have slipped to the ground under her torso, out of sight in the darkness.