Pub or Street?

[Joshua Rogan]

It must be considered that if "the grapes" spoken about by the witnesses were really there, then we are looking at somebody removing them from Strides hand before the medicos arrived in the yard.

Both Louis and Isaac said the grapes were in her hand when the doctors examined her.

Louis: "Her hands were clenched, and when the doctor opened them I saw that she had been holding grapes in one hand and sweetmeats in the other"

Isaac: "While the doctor was examining the body, I noticed that she had some grapes in her right hand and some sweets in her left."

[Fisherman]

The fact that some of this blood is described by Phillips as 'small oblong clots', is hardly reason to suppose that three witnesses would mistake this for grapes.

It must be considered that if "the grapes" spoken about by the witnesses were really there, then we are looking at somebody removing them from Strides hand before the medicos arrived in the yard. I find that much less credible than a simple mistake, led on by the oblong shape of the blood clots on Strides hand. It offers a completely logical explanation.

There is also the question of what possible reason anybody could have to remove the grapes from Strides hand, if they were actually there.

To make the picture complete, it should be added that although the larger part of the clots were on the back of the hand, there was also one clot on the inside of the wrist.

[drstrange169]

>>The fact that some of this blood is described by Phillips as 'small oblong clots', is hardly reason to suppose that three witnesses would mistake this for grapes.<

Au contraire, it is exactly something a witness in shock might easily mistake for grapes.


>>To get a reasonable view of the victim, would have required being almost as close as Phillips. Did Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer, all have 'front row seats'?<<

Mortimer wasn't there, Diemshitz is on record as saying he didn't pay close attention to the hands and Kozebrodsky couldn't speak English. Not exactly your ideal set of witnesses to trust with accurate information.

By the time they were all interviewed by reporters they would have heard stories about grapes and added it the memories. Once under oath the grape story disappears from Deimshtz's more considered, under oath, testimony.

[drstrange169]

>>Would a thin parcel be more likely to be a stack of a fairly small number of printed papers ... <<

A fairly small number of newspapers would not be a parcel, they would be, a fairly small number of newspapers, and recognised as such.
A "parcel" on the other hand is universally recognised as such.

[drstrange169]

>> Fanny sees grapes ...<<

But Fanny didn't see the grapes, she was locked out when the hand was opened. As she said in an interview, "I was told".

Dr Blackwell was the first to move her hands and he testified, "The double doors of the yard were closed when I arrived".


>> Squashed grapes would do a good job of staining a hanky.<<

Why? What sort of stain do you think grapes make?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> My take on things is that the witnesses saw the oblong bloodclots in the bad lighting and mistook them for grapes.<<

Quite so.

Stride's appearance in the mortuary, from the Evening News, Oct 1:

The woman now lying at the mortuary of St. George's-in-the-East appears to have been about 30 years of age. It is difficult to judge of the height of a person in a recumbent position, but she appears to have been about middle height. Her features are pinched, like those of one who has suffered want, but her expression is not unpleasant. Her cheek bones have a tendency to prominence, and her nose is sharp and well chiselled, with a slight marking at the bridge, far removed, however, from the protuberance of the Roman organ. Her hair is auburn, her lips thick, the upper one especially so, with that sort of double fold often noticed in lascivious women. She has the appearance of being an Irishwoman, but might be a German. She lies there on the stone with a smile of her pale face, as if she had died without a struggle. Her right hand, however, is encrusted with blood, as if she had tried to thrust her murderer away. Her clothing is described by the police as "Black diagonal cloth jacket, feather trimming, black alpaca skirt, black velveteen bodice, black crape bonnet, side-spring boots, white stockings." This seems all right enough except in regard to the "feather" trimmings. The trimming of the short dark jacket is imitation sealskin.

So the hand has a lot of dried blood on it.
The fact that some of this blood is described by Phillips as 'small oblong clots', is hardly reason to suppose that three witnesses would mistake this for grapes.

Phillips: The right arm was lying over the body, and the back of the hand and wrist had on them clotted blood.

Especially when the clots are on the back of the hand!

The fact that you can produce a picture of a blood clot - which surely come in many shapes and sizes - which looks a bit like a small grape, under normal lighting conditions, proves nothing.
There were about 15 to 20 people in the yard when Phillips was looking at the body.
To get a reasonable view of the victim, would have required being almost as close as Phillips.
Did Diemschutz, Kozebrodsky and Mortimer, all have 'front row seats'?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

>> In the darkness of Berner St, a stack of papers covered in Yiddish print, could have easily been mistaken for a newspaper wrapping<<

Sorry, but Smith's lack of mention of a third dimension to the parcel, all but rules out a stack small or large.

Not mentioning the parcel's thickness would indicate it was probably quite thin.
Would a thin parcel be more likely to be a stack of a fairly small number of printed papers - which for a small printing facility in 1888, would have been quite expensive to produce, or alternatively, would it be a wrapping of newspaper, containing a single layer of grapes, laid out in a lattice-like manner?

Plus if it were small it won't need to be tied with string.

It was said to be windy when Louis struck the match, the light from which first revealed the murder victim.
When the man with the parcel is ready to wield his knife, he would put the parcel down somewhere, and he wouldn't want the papers to blow away, would he?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The cachous were confirmed - they were there.

The grapes were not confirmed - they were never there.

"It is a mystery. There were small oblong clots on the back of the hand." This was Phillips´description of the blood on Stride´s right hand, the one supposedly holding the "grapes". My take on things is that the witnesses saw the oblong bloodclots in the bad lighting and mistook them for grapes.

The first reported witnessing of blood on the hand:

Blackwell: The right hand was open and on the chest, and was smeared with blood.

Fanny sees grapes, but note carefully what she says:

Mortimer: The woman appeared to me to be respectable, judging by her clothes, and in her hand were found a bunch of grapes and some sweets.

That's 'hand' - singular, not 'hands' plural.

Did she both the cachous packet and the 'small oblong clots', in the same hand, at the same time?

Also, was the hand open or closed at the time?...

Diemschutz: Her hands were tightly clenched, and when they were opened by the doctor I saw immediately that one had been holding sweetmeats and the other grapes.

I wonder which hand held what?
Neither doctor reports that either hand was closed, let alone tightly clenched.
Diemschutz may be referring to a period prior to the arrivals of Johnston and Blackwell.
Possibly a period when someone from the club is interfering with the body - adding and removing things from hands, adjusting clothing, etc.

Regarding confirmations; you say the grapes were not confirmed, because they were never there.
This leaves us to wonder why Stride just happened to have in her possession, a handkerchief stained by fruit.
Squashed grapes would do a good job of staining a hanky.
Then there's the parcel held by the man seen by Smith, with Stride - what was in the parcel?

This is the problem with saying (in effect); I imagine those three witnesses really just imagined seeing grapes, which were in fact, not there.
Not only can subjective interpretations never by proved right or wrong, but they fail to provide any insight into questions that do need to answered.

[drstrange169]

>> My take on things is that the witnesses saw the oblong bloodclots in the bad lighting and mistook them for grapes.<<

Quite so.

[drstrange169]

>> I agree. Three witnesses claim Stride had grapes in one of her hands ... <<

If you like Tom's quote about newspapers, you might want to read his dismissal of the grapes.

[drstrange169]

>> In the darkness of Berner St, a stack of papers covered in Yiddish print, could have easily been mistaken for a newspaper wrapping<<

Sorry, but Smith's lack of mention of a third dimension to the parcel, all but rules out a stack small or large.






Plus if it were small it won't need to be tied with string.

[Fisherman]

Abraham Ashbrigh and Edward Spooner could see cachous only, under match light.
PC Lamb, apparently, could see nothing in either hand, when holding his lantern very close to the victim.
Diemschutz and Mortimer, claim to see both grapes and cachous, supposedly when a doctor unclenches the victim's hands - which would be under lantern light.
Blackwell and Phillips, do see cachous but not grapes, under lantern light.

It's very odd!

The cachous were confirmed - they were there.

The grapes were not confirmed - they were never there.

"It is a mystery. There were small oblong clots on the back of the hand." This was Phillips´description of the blood on Stride´s right hand, the one supposedly holding the "grapes". My take on things is that the witnesses saw the oblong bloodclots in the bad lighting and mistook them for grapes.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Because the latter were able to make a close check aided by useful lighting, whereas the witnesses were not?

Abraham Ashbrigh and Edward Spooner could see cachous only, under match light.
PC Lamb, apparently, could see nothing in either hand, when holding his lantern very close to the victim.
Diemschutz and Mortimer, claim to see both grapes and cachous, supposedly when a doctor unclenches the victim's hands - which would be under lantern light.
Blackwell and Phillips, do see cachous but not grapes, under lantern light.

It's very odd!

[Fisherman]

Also, why do three witnesses apparently see grapes in Liz's hand, but not the police constables or the doctors?

Because the latter were able to make a close check aided by useful lighting, whereas the witnesses were not?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I'm not a lover of grapes myself, the skins are bitter and if they have seeds I spit them out.
My wife is a lover of grapes, she buys the seedless type but still leaves out the skin (spit them out in a tissue).

So, the fact Drs Blackwell & Phillips found no grape skins or pips in Stride's stomach should not be surprising if Stride didnt like the skins or pips either.
The edible part of the grape - the flesh, would easily have been dissolved by stomach acid, after 38 hours before the autopsy was conducted.
The grape stalk being found in the yard is supporting evidence. I know Tom suggested it was planted, but then he had to come up with some reason. The justification for anyone planting a grape stalk is very weak, a bit of a stretch, and a long stretch at that.

So, I don't think the case against the existence of grapes is all that convincing.

I agree. Three witnesses claim Stride had grapes in one of her hands, or at least they believe she had been found with such.
On the other hand, Blackwell and Phillips do not find grapes, and yet...

Phillips: The Coroner also desired me to examine the two handkerchiefs which were found on the deceased. I did not discover any blood on them, and I believe that the stains on the larger handkerchief are those of fruit. Neither on the hands nor about the body of the deceased did I find grapes, or connection with them. I am convinced that the deceased had not swallowed either the skin or seed of a grape within many hours of her death.

So at some point, Stride seems to have had some fruit - presumably grapes - within a handkerchief.
Did she eat them all (other than skin and seeds), on the night, and who paid for them?
Also, why do three witnesses apparently see grapes in Liz's hand, but not the police constables or the doctors?